Coronavirus in DFW - News & Discussion (Dallas, Center: charges, career)

[CDContribuitor]

My question to you is why has there been more deaths in nursing homes in NYC as compared to those at Sweden. They are comparable population. Would you conclude that it was not a mistake and was euthanasia in NYC?

My point is that the older patients not being transferred from the nursing homes to hospitals is what led to that high a number of deaths both in Sweden and NY state. Generalizing that euthansia was the cause of every death that happenned in each and every nursing home is not fair. If your argument is that the very act of not transferring a patient to hospital in itself is euthanasia, it is a different argument. There is where we come to the debate of intential vs unintentional consequences. You make it sound as if most, if not all of the patients were administered the "cocktail" that you are referring to.

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

I am not spending an hour listening to those. I gave you references, ignore them if you like but don't tell me that to know the truth I need to listen the guy who dreamed up this whole mess as he tries to explain away the fact that it didn't turn out like they planned. And the link I provided does discuss the practice of killing the elderly rather than hospitalizing them.

https://saludequitativa.blogspot.com...3%9ABLICA)&m=1

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52704836

https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/n...rekt-bedomning

https://www.discovery.org/human/2020...rly-in-sweden/

Giving an elderly person who is having trouble breathing morphine and midazolam was not a 'mistake' it was euthanasia.

[move4ward]

Originally Posted by CDContribuitor

My question to you is why has there been more deaths in nursing homes in NYC as compared to those at Sweden. They are comparable population. Would you conclude that it was not a mistake and was euthanasia in NYC?

Sweden didn't have infected patients staying around for weeks, where they were infecting others. They were immediately given a lethal injection and removed from the facility. It's a sacrifice for the greater good. That's what you get with socialism in medicine.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by CDContribuitor

My question to you is why has there been more deaths in nursing homes in NYC as compared to those at Sweden. They are comparable population. Would you conclude that it was not a mistake and was euthanasia in NYC?

huh? Many of the elderly in Sweden weren't sent to hospitals, they were not allowed admission even though there were available beds. I don't know of that happening in New York, do you? And I guess you mean NYC since New York state has twice the population of Sweden... The age breakdown differs so it's somewhat difficult to compare the two, but Sweden had a significantly higher per capita death rate.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...by-age-groups/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...new-york-city/

But let me ask this - are you seriously trying to say that the giving the elderly in Sweden morphine haldol and midazolam was done by mistake?

[CDContribuitor]

Sweden and NYC is comparable in population.

move4forward's statement made it clear on the purpose, which was to avoid other residents to get infected. I was not getting that purpose, hence I was debating with you. And no, I do not support it, if it was intentional.

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

huh? Many of the elderly in Sweden weren't sent to hospitals, they were not allowed admission even though there were available beds. I don't know of that happening in New York, do you? And I guess you mean NYC since New York state has twice the population of Sweden... The age breakdown differs so it's somewhat difficult to compare the two, but Sweden had a significantly higher per capita death rate.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...by-age-groups/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...new-york-city/

But let me ask this - are you seriously trying to say that the giving the elderly in Sweden morphine haldol and midazolam was done by mistake?

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by move4ward

Sweden didn't have infected patients staying around for weeks, where they were infecting others. They were immediately given a lethal injection and removed from the facility. It's a sacrifice for the greater good. That's what you get with socialism in medicine.

What in the name of God are you talking about? Socialists don't kill people for the 'greater good'. And this particular policy was enacted by Johan Giesecke and Anders Tegnell, not the Swedish Government and their 'hands off approach has been celebrated by a number of Americans as being a very libertarian approach. https://unhnews.com/a/24401096

[move4ward]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

huh? Many of the elderly in Sweden weren't sent to hospitals, they were not allowed admission even though there were available beds. I don't know of that happening in New York, do you? And I guess you mean NYC since New York state has twice the population of Sweden... The age breakdown differs so it's somewhat difficult to compare the two, but Sweden had a significantly higher per capita death rate.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...by-age-groups/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...new-york-city/

But let me ask this - are you seriously trying to say that the giving the elderly in Sweden morphine haldol and midazolam was done by mistake?

In order to keep hospital beds free, NY Governor Cuomo required patients to be discharged to nursing homes while still testing positive. The discharged residents infected thousands of elderly residents and staff. Deaths skyrocketed in nursing homes.

Other states do not require positive Coronavirus patients to be discharged into nursing homes. They can keep them in the hospital.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by CDContribuitor

My bigger point is that Sweden was able to achieve what it was able to achieve without stringent shutdowns. As per the epidemiologist, he thinks that stringent shutdowns would not have resulted in better results. He also thinks that Sweden should be better prepared for the second wave and he does not intend to do any shutdowns. Even his perspective on masks wearing is interesting, if you would like to see his interview that I posted a few pages ago.

Sweden is a difference society from the US, and doesn't provide a lesson for the US.


1. Forty percent of Swedes already live alone. Most of those in relationships maintain separate domiciles. They are already socially distant.


2. Swedes trust their government, and they do what their government advises without the need of governmental "mandates." The level of social distancing that required executive mandates in the US required nothing more than an advisory in Sweden. The population complied as well with little resistance.


3. Sweden already largely segregates their elderly and provides a social security system that enables more of them to be retired out of the work force. In the US, OTOH, 60 percent of Americans at age 60 and 40 percent of Americans at age 65 are still in the workforce and can't be segregated.


4. Sweden did, in fact, put mandatory restraints and closures on certain kinds of businesses that were deemed very likely to spread the disease, such as bars and night clubs, and they seriously enforced those restraints and closures.



Wholly different situation from the US. Technically, they didn't have legal mandates; effectively, they didn't need them.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by move4ward

In order to keep hospital beds free, NY Governor Cuomo required patients to be discharged to nursing homes while still testing positive. The discharged residents infected thousands of elderly residents and staff. Deaths skyrocketed in nursing homes.

Other states do not require positive Coronavirus patients to be discharged into nursing homes. They can keep them in the hospital.

The patients who were sent to nursing homes had nowhere else to go and were recovering, they were discharged from the hospital. What would you have preferred, rolling them out to the curb in their wheelchair?

I know that a number of states released them to LTC facilities but I don't know what every state did, maybe you could tell us what those other states did with these patients?

Here's CDC guidance for providing care for covid patients discharged from the hospital
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...acilities.html

[move4ward]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

The patients who were sent to nursing homes had nowhere else to go and were recovering, they were discharged from the hospital. What would you have preferred, rolling them out to the curb in their wheelchair?

I know that a number of states released them to LTC facilities but I don't know what every state did, maybe you could tell us what those other states did with these patients?

Here's CDC guidance for providing care for covid patients discharged from the hospital
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...acilities.html

Florida has nursing homes designated for recovering patients to keep them away from the uninfected. They are banned until 2 negative tests. Isolation Centers:https://floridaseniorliving.org/wp-c...-Available.pdf
https://www.naplesnews.com/story/new...es/5175344002/

Florida hospitals can no longer discharge patients who have been hospitalized with COVID-19 to nursing homes and longterm care centers without the patients having two consecutive negative tests 24 hours apart, according to a new emergency rule.

The rule signed by the state Agency for Health Care Administration on Tuesday makes what had been a practice protocol for discharges to nursing homes now a requirement of hospitals, said Kristen Knapp, spokeswoman for the Florida Health Care Association, which represents the nursing home industry.

Most of the cases are 45 and under. Check the "Cases by County" tab on the Florida dashboard.
https://experience.arcgis.com/experi...8ddedb9b25e429

[PriscillaVanilla]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

The patients who were sent to nursing homes had nowhere else to go and were recovering, they were discharged from the hospital. What would you have preferred, rolling them out to the curb in their wheelchair?

I know that a number of states released them to LTC facilities but I don't know what every state did, maybe you could tell us what those other states did with these patients?

Here's CDC guidance for providing care for covid patients discharged from the hospital
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...acilities.html

Here's the thing. People who criticize Governor Cuomo for sending patients to nursing homes, are not offering an alternative. What was he supposed to do? Throw them out on the street?