Will Columbus become largest Ohio metro? (Cleveland, Cincinnati: attorneys, transfer, inspection)

[cheech14]

Originally Posted by TomJones123

Well, yes. When there are more existing structures to renovate then there is less need to build new structures: renovations may not accurately reflect in building permits either. Most contractors dont pull permits for renovations unless they absolutely have to. Soemtimes permits arent needed to get abandoned structures liveable again. It all depends on the scope of work, the municipality, and if the inspectors can see your job as they drive by...

I don't know if I buy that the difference can be explained through existing structures being renovated. Wouldn't that suggest that there is little demand for new multi-family housing in Cleveland? New construction usually makes up the main part of units being added to supply, not renovations. We're also talking about the entire metro, not just the city proper where I would imagine there would be a lot more vacant properties. These numbers suggest there is relatively little MFH construction going on anywhere in the metro.

To prove or disprove the theory, we'd probably have to see vacancy rates by building type for the same period.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by cheech14

I don't know if I buy that the difference can be explained through existing structures being renovated. Wouldn't that suggest that there is little demand for new multi-family housing in Cleveland? New construction usually makes up the main part of units being added to supply, not renovations. We're also talking about the entire metro, not just the city proper where I would imagine there would be a lot more vacant properties. These numbers suggest there is relatively little MFH construction going on anywhere in the metro.

To prove or disprove the theory, we'd probably have to see vacancy rates by building type for the same period.

Im just speaking from experience as Ive been in the construction industry since 92, am a lead carpenter, project manager/general contractor type. Typically, where there is an existing structure its more cost effective to renovate...new construction still occurs depending on the scenario. Over the Rhine in Cincy is old as dirt but there is a fair amount of new construction going on. It is typically relative to the desires of the property owners, location of the property, existing structures, etc.

To be clear, Im avoiding absolute black/white thinking (im not saying anyone is doing this) where there just has to be a right and a wrong...there is a lot of gray area and no real set rules to determine who is gonna do what with their property.

[cheech14]

Originally Posted by TomJones123

Im just speaking from experience as Ive been in the construction industry since 92, am a lead carpenter, project manager/general contractor type. Typically, where there is an existing structure its more cost effective to renovate...new construction still occurs depending on the scenario. Over the Rhine in Cincy is old as dirt but there is a fair amount of new construction going on. It is typically relative to the desires of the property owners, location of the property, existing structures, etc.

To be clear, Im avoiding absolute black/white thinking (im not saying anyone is doing this) where there just has to be a right and a wrong...there is a lot of gray area and no real set rules to determine who is gonna do what with their property.

One of the things I was just thinking about was demographics. Apartments now are much more popular with younger demographics- students, single people, under 40, downsizers, etc., while single-family homes are for families and older people. I wonder if that has something to do with why some places are building more than others, too. I think Cleveland's population is generally older overall, so that may play a role.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by cheech14

One of the things I was just thinking about was demographics. Apartments now are much more popular with younger demographics- students, single people, under 40, downsizers, etc., while single-family homes are for families and older people. I wonder if that has something to do with why some places are building more than others, too. I think Cleveland's population is generally older overall, so that may play a role.

Well, the trend in over the rhine has been interesting as there are quite a few families, empty nesters, trust fund babies, hipsters, and just cool young folks. So, a lot of the old section 8 multi-family homes have been converted back into single family and bring a hefty cost associated with ownership.

There is also a lot of renovations going on in the neighborhoods outside of downtown and a lot of that tends to be more single family oriented as far as existing structures go. There is new construction all throughout. A lot of new highrise and lowrise apartment buildings and such. Some of the derelict tenemant type buildings have been demolished and replaced with large apartment complexes and that seems to appeal to the younger crowd...hell it would appeal to me if I was a young single man. So its a mix of both but the renovation mindset goes out in the burbs too. Ive done a lot of investor flips and turns all over suburban cincy and up into Middletown and Dayton as well.

[bjimmy24]

Also of course when we are talking Columbus we are talking about a city with borders about 3x larger than Cleveland, so keep that in mind.

And yeah, this doesn't get included in the stats https://www.cleveland.com/realestate...kfsJQqv4nPH15Y

There are a lot of renovations in Cleveland. There are such lovely buildings waiting for it, I wish I could get in on the action.

Single family homes are still by far the most popular housing in all Ohio cities though. I've lived in many apartments, but at the end of the day, I am not buying anything that has me sharing a wall with someone else.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Also of course when we are talking Columbus we are talking about a city with borders about 3x larger than Cleveland, so keep that in mind.

And yeah, this doesn't get included in the stats https://www.cleveland.com/realestate...kfsJQqv4nPH15Y

There are a lot of renovations in Cleveland. There are such lovely buildings waiting for it, I wish I could get in on the action.

Single family homes are still by far the most popular housing in all Ohio cities though. I've lived in many apartments, but at the end of the day, I am not buying anything that has me sharing a wall with someone else.

Its the same in Cincy. In OTR there is of course the big players such as Model Group, 3CDC, Urban Sites, HGC, SSRG, etc...but there are a lot of small investors who left suburban tract home development (McMansions) and started working on the historic housing stock Cincy is known for. Personally, I love true historical restoration from a carpentry perspective. Besides the craftmanship, working on these old, decrepit buildings brings a really lucrative profit margin if one is to concentrate on the right details. But to be clear, all throughout Cincy there is a mix of these types of renovations as well as a lot of new construction...so permititting stats give a partial picture, and a useful picture but not a complete picture. Im not quite sure how to develop a comprehensive picture based on stats alone in this case...so I defer to the die hard gear heads out there...peace!

[cheech14]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

Also of course when we are talking Columbus we are talking about a city with borders about 3x larger than Cleveland, so keep that in mind.

And yeah, this doesn't get included in the stats https://www.cleveland.com/realestate...kfsJQqv4nPH15Y

There are a lot of renovations in Cleveland. There are such lovely buildings waiting for it, I wish I could get in on the action.

Single family homes are still by far the most popular housing in all Ohio cities though. I've lived in many apartments, but at the end of the day, I am not buying anything that has me sharing a wall with someone else.

That stats I used were for metro area, not city, so that doesn't really apply here. They didn't include 2023 projects because I was just using annual totals. Here are the numbers through July of this year, though.

Total Permitted Units
Columbus: 6,097
Cincinnati: 3,720
Cleveland: 2,023
Dayton: 1,143
Toledo: 931
Akron: 612
Canton: 290
Youngstown: 165

Total Single Family Units and % of Total
Columbus: 2,993 49.09%
Cincinnati: 2,104: 56.56%
Cleveland: 1,492 73.75%
Dayton: 718 62.82%
Toledo: 524 56.28%
Akron: 437 71.41%
Canton: 206 71.03%
Youngstown: 157 95.15%

Total Multi-Family Units and % of Total
Columbus: 3,104 50.91%
Cincinnati: 1,616 43.44%
Cleveland: 531 26.25%
Dayton: 425 37.18%
Toledo: 407 43.72%
Akron: 175 28.59%
Canton: 84 28.97%
Youngstown: 8 4.85%

It seems that the trends from 2020-2022 mostly have continued. Cleveland has maintained the 2nd highest % of new units being single-family, though not quite as high a % as the other years.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by cheech14

That stats I used were for metro area, not city, so that doesn't really apply here. They didn't include 2023 projects because I was just using annual totals. Here are the numbers through July of this year, though.

Total Permitted Units
Columbus: 6,097
Cincinnati: 3,720
Cleveland: 2,023
Dayton: 1,143
Toledo: 931
Akron: 612
Canton: 290
Youngstown: 165

Total Single Family Units and % of Total
Columbus: 2,993 49.09%
Cincinnati: 2,104: 56.56%
Cleveland: 1,492 73.75%
Dayton: 718 62.82%
Toledo: 524 56.28%
Akron: 437 71.41%
Canton: 206 71.03%
Youngstown: 157 95.15%

Total Multi-Family Units and % of Total
Columbus: 3,104 50.91%
Cincinnati: 1,616 43.44%
Cleveland: 531 26.25%
Dayton: 425 37.18%
Toledo: 407 43.72%
Akron: 175 28.59%
Canton: 84 28.97%
Youngstown: 8 4.85%

It seems that the trends from 2020-2022 mostly have continued. Cleveland has maintained the 2nd highest % of new units being single-family, though not quite as high a % as the other years.

I believe you that these stats are correct..no worries there...Im just curious how the data is compiled. Ive pulled countless building permits and they are usually pulled and paid for at the local municipal buildings of corresponding entity. So, its not like the information is compiled alread in one place, so somebody did some cool homework. Is there a source or whatever....etc....thx.

[cheech14]

Originally Posted by TomJones123

I believe you that these stats are correct..no worries there...Im just curious how the data is compiled. Ive pulled countless building permits and they are usually pulled and paid for at the local municipal buildings of corresponding entity. So, its not like the information is compiled alread in one place, so somebody did some cool homework. Is there a source or whatever....etc....thx.

https://www.census.gov/construction/bps/index.html

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by cheech14

https://www.census.gov/construction/bps/index.html

Thanks!!