Cleveland Development Discussions (Cleveland Heights, Green: DMV, lodging, penalties)

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by 216facts

CCF has such a reputation and it attracts the finest across so many different disciplines.

The CCF already is understaffed as it typically takes six months now to book appointments, if they're even available in desired locations. I recently had to book an appointment at the main campus in order to get an appointment with my physician who I had always seen at the Willoughby clinic, and even that appointment was one of the last available..



As i said, the best applicants have many options and restrictive reproductive rights will be a massive negative for CCF in the competition for these applicants, most especially for OB/Gyns and for women and couples desiring to start or expand families.


Confusing past history with present realities is a losing proposition IMO.

[ferraris]

Six months in, Shaker Square’s new owners make plan to spend millions fixing up property

[216facts]

Originally Posted by ferraris

Six months in, Shaker Square’s new owners make plan to spend millions fixing up property

At some point, Shaker Square will be reborn and come back to life as it was in the 1930s-1960s. I mean really hopping. It has train access directly to downtown & airport, easy access to Univ. Circle and all the jobs, train access further east to Shaker and Van Aken. It just makes sense, just like it did back when the Vans drew it up.

I can remember, over 30 years ago, how much fun it was to have coffee at the old Arabica, watch the trains, then hop one downtown. I think the residential piece needs figured out. Look at what's happening at OC/West Side Market, why is that not happening at Shaker Square?

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by 216facts

At some point, Shaker Square will be reborn and come back to life as it was in the 1930s-1960s. I mean really hopping. It has train access directly to downtown & airport, easy access to Univ. Circle and all the jobs, train access further east to Shaker and Van Aken. It just makes sense, just like it did back when the Vans drew it up.

I can remember, over 30 years ago, how much fun it was to have coffee at the old Arabica, watch the trains, then hop one downtown. I think the residential piece needs figured out. Look at what's happening at OC/West Side Market, why is that not happening at Shaker Square?

I get your drift, but I don't really think OC/Market Sq is comparable to Shaker Sq. other than, of course, being compact, walkable rail transit-oriented districts. As you indicated, Shaker Square is Cleveland's original TOD ... viz Rapid Transit, that is. It has a still large apartment district -- I believe the largest multi-unit housing district inside the City of Cleveland. Apt. buildings began springing up in/around Shaker Square during World War I (the 19-Teens) when the Vans began construction of the Rapid through there. Shaker Sq's issue is rehabbing (in some cases saving) the extensive apt housing stock it has, with some spot-new developments filling in -- notably, the projected apt complex planned at the Van Aken-Shaker junction, south btw Shaker and Drexmore.

Ohio City/Market Sq., all the way into the early 2000s, was a rundown, rapidly deteriorating, largely abandoned retail district surrounding the always-active West Side Market. There were few apts in the area besides the handsome West Virginia Apts (Bridge and W. 28th) and a few mixed-use walk-up buildings along W. 25. Of course the rest of the area is dominated by the oft cute, now largely rehabbed (and in-filled) Victorian era Arts & Crafts compact homes on tight lots, which is OC's trademark. OC/Mkt Sq then essentially was a blank canvass for apt development and, as we're seeing, with INTRO, the Dexter, Waterford Bluffs, W. 19th PL and all the other smaller infill apt/townhouse developments in Duck Island (which, to me, is really indistinguishable from OC in many ways), and happily building tight/close to the Red Line Rapid station. All this makes Ohio City, by far, Cleveland's hottest mixed-use, walkable entertainment district.

So it's really kind of unfair to negatively compare SS to Ohio City -- SS has been building and maintaining a rapid transit apt district for well over a century -- OC with its total retail district restaurant/apt makeover is really brand new. Add this to the fact that Shaker Square itself -- yes, being totally mismanaged by the happily gone Coral group -- is now getting a much-needed makeover... And then there's the substantial apt in-fill apt building along Larchmere 1 (long) block to the north. Larchmere is booming and far more diverse, commercial-wise, than Markets Sq... And even with this, the Shaker Square area has a diff orientation than Ohio City: it's more a family-oriented, neighborhood-type area whereas Ohio City is the trendy, regional more touristy type place... Both have their places w/in Cleveland and, to me, are welcome. Shaker Square has a ways to go getting back on its feet, but I feel it is getting there.

[Unicorn hunter]

Originally Posted by 216facts

At some point, Shaker Square will be reborn and come back to life as it was in the 1930s-1960s. I mean really hopping. It has train access directly to downtown & airport, easy access to Univ. Circle and all the jobs, train access further east to Shaker and Van Aken. It just makes sense, just like it did back when the Vans drew it up.

I can remember, over 30 years ago, how much fun it was to have coffee at the old Arabica, watch the trains, then hop one downtown. I think the residential piece needs figured out. Look at what's happening at OC/West Side Market, why is that not happening at Shaker Square?

When I first moved to Cleveland in 2019, I rented for 6 months in Shaker Square. I was amazed at how cool the area was and amazed that developers/others didn't seem interested in it. I loved sitting at Dewey's, sipping a Cafe Au Lait, watching the trains go by, etc., similar to what you recall from earlier times. In those days the Square seemed poised to really take off. Sadly, returning to the area after the pandemic, the Square is a mere shadow of its former self. So many businesses gone.....even beloved Dewey's and the Bigby Coffee that took its place apparently didn't last long. I really hope you all are correct that the Square will be reborn. It's kind of a microcosm of how I feel about the entire Cleveland area....so much potential languishing. I get that Cleveland was once a booming, lively city and I really hope it becomes one again!

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by Unicorn hunter

When I first moved to Cleveland in 2019, I rented for 6 months in Shaker Square. I was amazed at how cool the area was and amazed that developers/others didn't seem interested in it. I loved sitting at Dewey's, sipping a Cafe Au Lait, watching the trains go by, etc., similar to what you recall from earlier times. In those days the Square seemed poised to really take off. Sadly, returning to the area after the pandemic, the Square is a mere shadow of its former self. So many businesses gone.....even beloved Dewey's and the Bigby Coffee that took its place apparently didn't last long. I really hope you all are correct that the Square will be reborn. It's kind of a microcosm of how I feel about the entire Cleveland area....so much potential languishing. I get that Cleveland was once a booming, lively city and I really hope it becomes one again!

We did the same thing, living in Shaker Square for ~6 months in 2017/18. It definitely was better back then, but I am still hopeful it can rebound.

It was (and is) very restaurant heavy, so it took a big hit from Covid. Then, at basically the same time, the Van Aken District opened up and drew customers away. Events like the craft fair and indoor farmer's market also moved to the VAD (they used to use the space that's currently the Rape Crisis Center -- I remember once there was some sort of indie film festival held in that space too). The outdoor farmers market is still there though.

That said, I was at Michael's Diner recently and thought to myself that Shaker Square was finally feeling like Shaker Square again. The diner was busy (including full dine-in), lots of foot traffic getting on and off the trains and also walking around the square.

I think it just has to be spruced up a bit and find its niche to coexist with VAD. And sprucing it up includes the rentals -- too many of them are really showing their age in a bad way.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by ferraris

We did the same thing, living in Shaker Square for ~6 months in 2017/18. It definitely was better back then, but I am still hopeful it can rebound.

It was (and is) very restaurant heavy, so it took a big hit from Covid. Then, at basically the same time, the Van Aken District opened up and drew customers away. Events like the craft fair and indoor farmer's market also moved to the VAD (they used to use the space that's currently the Rape Crisis Center -- I remember once there was some sort of indie film festival held in that space too). The outdoor farmers market is still there though.

That said, I was at Michael's Diner recently and thought to myself that Shaker Square was finally feeling like Shaker Square again. The diner was busy (including full dine-in), lots of foot traffic getting on and off the trains and also walking around the square.

I think it just has to be spruced up a bit and find its niche to coexist with VAD. And sprucing it up includes the rentals -- too many of them are really showing their age in a bad way.

Coral nearly destroyed the Square.

[216facts]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Coral nearly destroyed the Square.

I assume you meant COVID.

Recent article on the square: https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/...usiness-owners

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by 216facts

I assume you meant COVID.

Recent article on the square: https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/...usiness-owners

No, I meant what I said... Coral's long history of poor maintenance and neglect helped lead to the current crisis. COVID just pushed the Square over the edge.

[ferraris]

Is it a positive or negative that Shaker Square is owned and operated as one large package?

That model is more common in newer locations, and I don't think it has a good track record (see the countless dead and dying shopping malls and strip malls). Even the few older examples, like the West Side Market and old arcades have struggled.

Of course there's no shortage of counterexamples like nearby Buckeye.

If the Vans had built and sold individual buildings, I wonder how it would have fared.