Open Debate - Is Universalism Biblical - A Preterist's perspective (preach, beliefs)
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This is the whole purpose of being redeemed in Christ.
Death is defeated for those in Christ.
I don't follow you here.
You just argued against the view, then confirmed it?
Clearly state your case as to how this pertains to physical death?
How? I Clement was written prior to the destruction of the temple. Clement wrote before 70 A.D., because he speaks about sacrifices being offered in Jerusalem, which could not have occured after 70 AD.
"Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalm only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed"
Please cite your source.
I'm not interested in debating you on these things. But to answer your question ....
Quote:
Please cite your source.
Clement was most likely written somewhere between 80 and 140 CE ...
Now now trettep, you just aren't using your Preterist inspired imagination!
First you have to numb your mind to reality and then navigate into the Bermuda Triangle of imaginative Preterism. Welcome to shipwreck of the faith.
Actually, that's exactly what you are doing. But eventually, you will find yourself lost, holding your hand up so someone can answer your questions as to how you got there, again.
I realize now when you referred to clement you were not referring to I clement but other writings ...
Then stay out of the debate. It is that simple.
And I was most definitely referring to I Clement, chapter 41, which was written before 70 AD, as I have proved from the excerpt of the text that I submitted to the forum, as he referred to Temple practices and ordinances still in effect, in Jerusalem, which places the writings, before the fall of the temple in 70 AD.
Simple as that. Deny that, you deny the reality of it.
Actually, that's exactly what you are doing. But eventually, you will find yourself lost, holding your hand up so someone can answer your questions as to how you got there, again.
You know, it's really interesting to go through this thread and read the posts. What I personally find fascinating is how EASY it is to see what manner of spirit certain posters are of. I seem to notice a very harsh attitude with most Calvinists, and a loving one with most Universalists.
Think that's just an opinion? Well then, go through the posts and read it! Couldn't be plainer.
Luke 9:51-56
51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
I like this post, but to often all I see are articles on what Paul said. Rarely do I see things that are pre-Christ. I dont want to dive to deep into this, but if scripture is God breathed why such a focus on Paul? Ezekiel itself makes reference to Satan being no more. There are other verses too. They dont imply a possiblity, but more a finality.
I realize I am several pages behind in the thread and it was my intention (good intentions lol) to just observe. BUT I do have a couple comments if you don't mind my butting in.
Paul was a great orator. He was taught and trained by the Pharisees. Paul, as a devout Jew persecuted the Christians. When Paul speaks of some things it is definitely from a Jewish perspective.
You are right that Paul and others create a sense of finality when it comes to the end of that particular age. Something dramatic would happen that would change Judaism forever. That thing was Christ. Paul tries to convey that using many different things to illustrate. Jews understood that the sacrifice of an animal could bring remission of sins. Therefore when Paul states:
"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--"
It was God's JUSTICE that was shown. He had left the sins unpunished weighing down the people with shame and guilt. Like a spoiled child. Then came the ultimate son to return to God all the prodigal sons.
Jesus was innocent and the Jews knew it. It is the civil war between the Jews that the Romans came to stop when they destroyed the temple. Rather than flee the city the Jewish leaders made a final stand. Had they listened to Jesus they would have been saved from that destruction. Literally.
Therefore we see in Corinthians that there is a real threat of destruction if you don't have faith that what Jesus said was true would be true. When the city was surrounded the people KNEW that Jesus had said the truth. They fled the city.
Some take that and try to make the scripture say that destruction means burning in hell but in Romans you can see that Paul is much more interested in how one LIVES than what happens after death.
Quote:
If the idea is free will by accepting Christ then why even bother if it wont matter in the end anyway? This is the basic problem I see. Just because someone takes a knee facing they have no choice does not show free will, but more a beating into submission.
Think about it this way. If you want to live in sin... go for it.
That is how I think. I know without a shadow of a doubt that living in sin is so much worse a life than the one I lead now. Paul talks about this in Romans 5. What God gave the Jews, and consequently the Gentiles, is the absolution of sins by grace. God considered it a show of his Justice to save the many (from themselves/guilt) by having one man suffer and die to spread the words of God.
His Justice is to pardon by grace all sin. So if you want to live in sin then that is your free will... but God still loves you and considers you more precious than the sparrow... God counts you as justified through the blood of Christ whether you want it or not... and isn't that God's right to see things as he wants and even make it so? Where is the rule against God waving his magic spirit and justifying all men? What is to stop him?
Universal salvation is as freeing as unconditional love. Yet you see that the burden is heavy on those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation because of loved ones and constantly trying to live up to the highest of standards.
I am free to sin but should I? Heck no.. why would I want to live in death again?
Romans 6:20-22 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Eternal life is not postmortem. Eternal life is knowing God. An abundant full life of knowing Love.
Ok.. there's my two cents... now back to the regularly scheduled programming.
My question is why did God make the whole truth so difficult? There is only one truth and everyone seems to have a different perspective on it. I think its time for me to pray and fast about this whole thing. I have been studying Full Preterism and Universalism a lot lately and sort of side with each but from the looks of it I have only touched the surface. I didn't think God was a God of confusion but I guess I was wrong!
After I sat here reading each person trying to prove the other right/wrong or from my perspective trying to show himself more educated in God's word than his brother/sister I am more confused that I was when I started. I guess I will just have to live my years searching but will I ever find the right answer to the WHOLE truth? Thanks the Lord I believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God and through him I find Salvation/Redemption/Life Age Enduring ... what ever anyone here using big words wants to call it.
I do know this. I am not even going to attempt at putting a Bible Verse in this posting so another Christian can come along and divide it up to show themselves to be smarter and more educated that I am in the Word. Does God really find Glory in all this? One thing I do know is this: I love the Lord and I can't get enough of him and sometimes I wished with all this mess and confusion between Christians that I wouldn't mind him speeding up my life a little faster to get me out of here. This is exactly why I don't like to assemble with other Christians because they sit around and argue about who is right and who is wrong. I miss fellowship but if this if anything like the fellowship in any church then I'd better lock my front door.
Where is the unity the early church had? It certainly isn't here. If the Holy Spirit is here teaching us the truth then whom amongst us has him and who doesn't? It is just really sad that Christ's Church would be such a mess of confusing one another. I would rather focus on the most important aspect of all ... LOVE and my personal relationship I now have with our Father because of the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! I know one thing and I guess I will say this in simple terms "God love us so much that he gave ..." I encourage everyone here to fast and prayer as our earth church brethren did. I know I am after reading through all this ...
My question is why did God make the whole truth so difficult? There is only one truth and everyone seems to have a different perspective on it. I think its time for me to pray and fast about this whole thing. I have been studying Full Preterism and Universalism a lot lately and sort of side with each but from the looks of it I have only touched the surface. I didn't think God was a God of confusion but I guess I was wrong!
After I sat here reading each person trying to prove the other right/wrong or from my perspective trying to show himself more educated in God's word than his brother/sister I am more confused that I was when I started. I guess I will just have to live my years searching but will I ever find the right answer to the WHOLE truth? Thanks the Lord I believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God and through him I find Salvation/Redemption/Life Age Enduring ... what ever anyone here using big words wants to call it.
I do know this. I am not even going to attempt at putting a Bible Verse in this posting so another Christian can come along and divide it up to show themselves to be smarter and more educated that I am in the Word. Does God really find Glory in all this? One thing I do know is this: I love the Lord and I can't get enough of him and sometimes I wished with all this mess and confusion between Christians that I wouldn't mind him speeding up my life a little faster to get me out of here. This is exactly why I don't like to assemble with other Christians because they sit around and argue about who is right and who is wrong. I miss fellowship but if this if anything like the fellowship in any church then I'd better lock my front door.
Where is the unity the early church had? It certainly isn't here. If the Holy Spirit is here teaching us the truth then whom amongst us has him and who doesn't? It is just really sad that Christ's Church would be such a mess of confusing one another. I would rather focus on the most important aspect of all ... LOVE and my personal relationship I now have with our Father because of the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! I know one thing and I guess I will say this in simple terms "God love us so much that he gave ..." I encourage everyone here to fast and prayer as our earth church brethren did. I know I am after reading through all this ...
He dorihe!
To fast and pray is a good way to get answers. The truth is found in the word of God and the Holy Spirit leads us into the whole truth. Confusion comes from the enemy. If we study Universalism or Preterism, we study falsehood from where confusion comes and we can end up in unbelief.
In this thread they argue and they are both wrong. Salvation have the believers that die in Christ, they are in the First Resurrection (1. TH 4:14). With Christ we can walk the narrow way, it is conditional. Paul was running after that goal.
Preterism is nonsense. Any Jew will tell you the Messiah has not come, because there is no peace on earth. What they do not know that He first came to deal with our sins. But they are right, when Jesus comes the second time, there will be peace on earth.
Unity is in Christ and His love, but love and truth go together, therefore there is so much division caused by the enemy not by God. That should not discourage us, our task is to have faith in Christ and do the will of God in our life. God bless!
He dorihe!
To fast and pray is a good way to get answers. The truth is found in the word of God and the Holy Spirit leads us into the whole truth. Confusion comes from the enemy. If we study Universalism or Preterism, we study falsehood from where confusion comes and we can end up in unbelief.
Actually it is this prejudging of views before reading and interpreting the text that enables the perpetuation of falsehoods. It starts with false presumptions that ensure that the conclusions will be consistent with the falsehoods you began reading with. Universalism or preterism should be evaluated as conclusions reached AFTER reading and analyzing the texts . . . NOT presumed BEFORE reading.
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Just sayin'
I do have a couple comments if you don't mind my butting in.
