Open Debate - Is Universalism Biblical - A Preterist's perspective (believing, exodus)
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Dear Sciotamics,
There are three classes or groups that will be "made alive" or "vivified" in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
Here they are:
For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."
(23) Yet each in his own class:
the Firstfruit, Christ;
thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;"
(24) thereafter the consummation,
whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (25) For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. (26) The last enemy is being abolished: death. 1 Corinthians 15:22-26
So the first two groups/classes do not nearly fill up the "in Adam all." There needs to be one more group/class which needs to come into being made alive/vivified.
The third group comes in
AFTER Christ gives up the Kingdom to God
and AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power is nullified
and of course AFTER death
The three things above do NOT occur in Revelation so we must know that Paul saw beyong John's Revelation. The only death remaining at this juncture is the second death. So only the second death needs to be abolished so the rest of mankind, the third group can be vivified and the GOD ALL IN ALL (not just All in some.)
My question is why did God make the whole truth so difficult? There is only one truth and everyone seems to have a different perspective on it. I think its time for me to pray and fast about this whole thing. I have been studying Full Preterism and Universalism a lot lately and sort of side with each but from the looks of it I have only touched the surface. I didn't think God was a God of confusion but I guess I was wrong!
After I sat here reading each person trying to prove the other right/wrong or from my perspective trying to show himself more educated in God's word than his brother/sister I am more confused that I was when I started. I guess I will just have to live my years searching but will I ever find the right answer to the WHOLE truth? Thanks the Lord I believe that Jesus is the Christ the son of the Living God and through him I find Salvation/Redemption/Life Age Enduring ... what ever anyone here using big words wants to call it.
I do know this. I am not even going to attempt at putting a Bible Verse in this posting so another Christian can come along and divide it up to show themselves to be smarter and more educated that I am in the Word. Does God really find Glory in all this? One thing I do know is this: I love the Lord and I can't get enough of him and sometimes I wished with all this mess and confusion between Christians that I wouldn't mind him speeding up my life a little faster to get me out of here. This is exactly why I don't like to assemble with other Christians because they sit around and argue about who is right and who is wrong. I miss fellowship but if this if anything like the fellowship in any church then I'd better lock my front door.
Where is the unity the early church had? It certainly isn't here. If the Holy Spirit is here teaching us the truth then whom amongst us has him and who doesn't? It is just really sad that Christ's Church would be such a mess of confusing one another. I would rather focus on the most important aspect of all ... LOVE and my personal relationship I now have with our Father because of the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! I know one thing and I guess I will say this in simple terms "God love us so much that he gave ..." I encourage everyone here to fast and prayer as our earth church brethren did. I know I am after reading through all this ...
What you complain about, dorihe, is EXACTLY why I gave up on this forum and most everyone in it. Oh, I pop in now and then to flagellate myself, but the Christianity of today is a big joke and you just described why it's a big joke. I have finally found the truth of the whole matter but I won't be sharing it in here and I certainly didn't find it in that corrupted mess called the Bible.
dorihe, Christianity is like a big family. Within that family are members of differing maturity; some babies, some diaper trained and some in kindergarten. One should not expect a whole lot when dealing with a plethora of churched people who are taught by pastors who have their head up their (where the sun don't shine).
Don't throw the baby out with the kitty litter.
What you complain about, dorihe, is EXACTLY why I gave up on this forum and most everyone in it. Oh, I pop in now and then to flagellate myself, but the Christianity of today is a big joke and you just described why it's a big joke. I have finally found the truth of the whole matter but I won't be sharing it in here and I certainly didn't find it in that corrupted mess called the Bible.
We are all looking at the same reality, Thrill . . . that is why sharing our witness and understanding of it is so important. It may not be easy to separate out the wheat from the subjective chaff . . . but that is not a reason not to participate. Iron sharpens iron . . . but it is necessarily a confrontational process.
I'm new to this forum, but this thread caught my eye. I used to be a fundamentalist type, but I have always kept my eyes open, because God speaks to different people in different ways, and you never know what you may learn! I have never felt complete in God, as there are far more questions than answers, but I have always felt as though I was on a journey, a trail of sorts, through a wilderness, with all sorts of things to learn and see along the way. I have also taken Jesus to be the Truth, and the bringer of all truth, so in Him we can find the answers we are looking for. If that belief is a false one, then there is no real truth!
If Jesus IS truth, then HE is the One I want to follow, and HE has shown with His life on earth the path that we are to follow...the path is Him.
As I have travelled along, some of the biggest questions that I have had are in the area of eternal torment and what is the fate of those that don't accept Jesus as Savior. So many times I have heard the question as to where those that haven't heard will spend eternity, and what of those that are babies, etc.? So at this, I decided to ask my Lord for answers. At first I was led to study a bit about Preterism. There are many truths in this area, but, unfortunately, the whole truth is not there. Preterists seem to be guarding their ideas with the fear of being proven false. And all along, they seem to fail to realize that their view is but a portion of God's plan; a window of prophecy, not realizing that prophecy expands into time layers, and partial fulfillments come all the time, and will, until the final end. Then all prophecy will be complete.
One of the other areas that I was led into is Universalism. There are also many truths here, but unfortunately, this idea is incomplete. They say that everyone in the world will end up in eternity with God, but the question of each person's sin-life is not dealt with. It leaves many thinking that no matter what they do, they will be forgiven. This is not true, or Jesus would never have said, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" What exactly IS hell?
I started with the fact that I have always been kind of hard shelled when it comes to missing the mark and winding up in hell, but when I realized that the God I serve is not a torturer, the eternal torment thing needed an answer. I found that sin is not necessarily a permanent mark upon our beings, but it is a debt that needs to be paid off. Sin is a debt. In the case of Adam's sin, it was passed to all of the human race, and through it, we became mortal. And from Adam's sin onward, we sin because we are mortal, not the other way around. Death is in us because of Adam's sin and we became mortal, NOT because we sin. The wages of sin is death, but that is pertaining to our willingly sinning in our souls, (not our spirits), and it causes separation with God. (That is death). Jesus gave His life to correct Adam's sin, but He also lived to provide the way for us to deal with our personal sin. Remember, all sin is a debt, and it HAS to be paid. Jesus rectified Adam's sin and that pertains to ALL who have received this curse. That's EVERYONE that ever lived. Paul explained this in Romans, but in the Old English, it doesn't quite come across with the impact that it deserves. It says that "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." Jesus' death paid the debt for ALL mankind, but the Universalists fail to take one thing into account. Our personal sin. God created the universe and HE knew beforehand of the corruption that would enter into it. But He also wanted all men to accept Him with their free will. He didn't want to create robots. So He had a plan to rectify the result of sin that He knew would occur. He also made a way to restore ALL of His creation back to perfection, with the willingness on everyone's part to bow the knee to God. No one will be forced to bow, nor will they need to be forced. When a person appears before the Living God, there will be no need for discussion about Who He is! Everyone will realize the need to love their creator. Now the Universalists say that ALL of creation is everything, but they miss the fact that the information and beliefs that we place in our souls; the decision making part of us, was NOT created by Him, and IS NOT included in the restoration without repentance. We have to die to our sin life, (sometimes called the 'old man') and replace it with the life of Jesus. Yes, the framework of the soul WAS created by God, but the input and decisions are left to us. It's just like a building. God made the material that we use to build it, but we build it in whatever way we see fit. And we tend to build our buildings in the way we have learned, the surroundings that we were raised in, our environment, etc., etc. What the Lord wants is a people that will love Him, but the degree that we love Him and follow Him is the determining factor in our end position for eternity. This is the gold, silver, and precious stones, versus the wood, hay, and stubble of our lives. If we build our lives in a close relationship to Jesus, (Who is the perfect reflection of the Father), we will reside close to Him in the end. And it goes out from there. Those that didn't develop their relationship with Jesus will have their wood, hay and stubble burned away to the degree that they developed it. The New Jerusalem is a Spiritual City, and it is 1500 miles wide, 1500 miles long, and 1500 miles high. But it is in the shape of a pyramid, with the Throne at the top, and the believers in Jesus will live in it, determined by what each individual has left after the judgment of burning away the garbage of the soul. And where does the fire come from? The Throne, of course! We will all stand before Him. Daniel saw this fire proceeding from the Throne (Dan 7:10). All humanity will stand before Him and this fire, and what is left of our souls will be what remains forever. Our spirits and bodies were created by God, and they will be completely restored by Him as necessary. The difference between the believer in Jesus and the others is the closeness to the Throne and the City. When Jesus spoke of the outer darkness...(‘And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matt. 25:30), He was speaking of those He did not know, yet they believed in Him...they had no real relationship with Him, and they were cast out to where the non-believers will reside. They will be gnashing their teeth because of the realization of the fact that they lost out on what they could have had with Jesus, if they had only given their souls to Him. Matt. 16:24-27. The outer darkness is a place that is far from the LIGHT, which is Jesus. Their understanding will be lacking, but they will believe nonetheless. Those that ARE close to Jesus will BE close to Him, yet will have the ability to go anywhere. These things are states of being, not so much physical places, although in the Spiritual dimension, these things are mentioned as physical.
Another thing that I would like to mention is our disappointment with the church in general. The church is the spiritually assembled group of people that worship the true God. We have been around since the beginning. Its outward form has changed throughout the ages. There were those before Noah that worshipped, such as Enoch. There were those like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and his twelve sons. These were also part of the Spiritual church. Then there were the Hebrews that left Egypt, and were shown the Passover. These were the Passover church, all the way to the time of Jesus. They all worshipped the true God, yet in the way that they were shown. There was a transition of 40 years from leaving Egypt until this group entered fully into Passover in the Promised Land. The center of the Hebrew worship was the Temple. When Jesus died and rose from the dead, the true church became the church of Pentecost, and the Passover Church began to pass away. During this time, there was a transformation of 40 years, in which the Hebrews were given the grace to turn to Jesus, and at the end of that time, the Temple was destroyed, physically manifesting the end of that type of church.
The church as we know it has been operating in Pentecost, even though that Spirit that was given on Pentecost Sunday has dwindled. This is God's plan. He is getting us ready for the next stage, (or age) of the church. This will be the Tabernacles Church, also known as the Millennium. Just as Isaiah and Habakkuk said, " For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. The church will then "Tabernacle" with the Lord, and the remaining 1000 years will be used to culminate everything. In order to reach the next age, we have to pass through another transition period. I believe that we are in that right now. (I won't go into anymore specifics here, even though this is a time of great interest to most.)
So the church is in transition. After the transition, it will not be exactly the same. (compare Christianity to Judaism). All of the mixture, the lies, the misdirection, is being dealt with at present. Peter said that judgment begins at the house of God. So don't be surprised at the lack of love, the false teaching, all the confusion, etc. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, and John all warned us about it. The wood hay and stubble in the church is being exposed so that it can be removed. Just seek Jesus with a true heart, because HE IS THE TRUTH. He is also the WORD. The answers can be found in the Word with the Spirit's help. The problem comes in implementing those answers. We do this by giving ourselves to Him. Our desires have to pass and we need to take on His desires if we want to complete this journey fully.
Don't give up on Jesus, because your relationship with Him is your anchor. It can't be found in anyone around us, or any teaching. Starting with Him, let Him teach you from His Word. When I became confused in all the various conflicting teachings, I went to Jesus and asked Him to teach me. He then told me this: John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." As you go to Him to learn, the Word will begin to line up, and the falseness will become more and more evident. But remember, the most important thing is love. Love your neighbor, love yourself, and most of all, love God.
Last edited by trumpethim; 12-13-2013 at 01:53 PM..
I'm new to this forum, but this thread caught my eye. I used to be a fundamentalist type, but I have always kept my eyes open, because God speaks to different people in different ways, and you never know what you may learn! I have never felt complete in God, as there are far more questions than answers, but I have always felt as though I was on a journey, a trail of sorts, through a wilderness, with all sorts of things to learn and see along the way. I have also taken Jesus to be the Truth, and the bringer of all truth, so in Him we can find the answers we are looking for. If that belief is a false one, then there is no real truth!
If Jesus IS truth, then HE is the One I want to follow, and HE has shown with His life on earth the path that we are to follow...the path is Him.
As I have travelled along, some of the biggest questions that I have had are in the area of eternal torment and what is the fate of those that don't accept Jesus as Savior. So many times I have heard the question as to where those that haven't heard will spend eternity, and what of those that are babies, etc.? So at this, I decided to ask my Lord for answers. At first I was led to study a bit about Preterism. There are many truths in this area, but, unfortunately, the whole truth is not there. Preterists seem to be guarding their ideas with the fear of being proven false. And all along, they seem to fail to realize that their view is but a portion of God's plan; a window of prophecy, not realizing that prophecy expands into time layers, and partial fulfillments come all the time, and will, until the final end. Then all prophecy will be complete.
One of the other areas that I was led into is Universalism. There are also many truths here, but unfortunately, this idea is incomplete. They say that everyone in the world will end up in eternity with God, but the question of each person's sin-life is not dealt with. It leaves many thinking that no matter what they do, they will be forgiven. This is not true, or Jesus would never have said, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" What exactly IS hell?
I started with the fact that I have always been kind of hard shelled when it comes to missing the mark and winding up in hell, but when I realized that the God I serve is not a torturer, the eternal torment thing needed an answer. I found that sin is not necessarily a permanent mark upon our beings, but it is a debt that needs to be paid off. Sin is a debt. In the case of Adam's sin, it was passed to all of the human race, and through it, we became mortal. And from Adam's sin onward, we sin because we are mortal, not the other way around. Death is in us because of Adam's sin and we became mortal, NOT because we sin. The wages of sin is death, but that is pertaining to our willingly sinning in our souls, (not our spirits), and it causes separation with God. (That is death). Jesus gave His life to correct Adam's sin, but He also lived to provide the way for us to deal with our personal sin. Remember, all sin is a debt, and it HAS to be paid. Jesus rectified Adam's sin and that pertains to ALL who have received this curse. That's EVERYONE that ever lived. Paul explained this in Romans, but in the Old English, it doesn't quite come across with the impact that it deserves. It says that "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." Jesus' death paid the debt for ALL mankind, but the Universalists fail to take one thing into account. Our personal sin. God created the universe and HE knew beforehand of the corruption that would enter into it. But He also wanted all men to accept Him with their free will. He didn't want to create robots. So He had a plan to rectify the result of sin that He knew would occur. He also made a way to restore ALL of His creation back to perfection, with the willingness on everyone's part to bow the knee to God. No one will be forced to bow, nor will they need to be forced. When a person appears before the Living God, there will be no need for discussion about Who He is! Everyone will realize the need to love their creator. Now the Universalists say that ALL of creation is everything, but they miss the fact that the information and beliefs that we place in our souls; the decision making part of us, was NOT created by Him, and IS NOT included in the restoration without repentance. We have to die to our sin life, (sometimes called the 'old man') and replace it with the life of Jesus. Yes, the framework of the soul WAS created by God, but the input and decisions are left to us. It's just like a building. God made the material that we use to build it, but we build it in whatever way we see fit. And we tend to build our buildings in the way we have learned, the surroundings that we were raised in, our environment, etc., etc. What the Lord wants is a people that will love Him, but the degree that we love Him and follow Him is the determining factor in our end position for eternity. This is the gold, silver, and precious stones, versus the wood, hay, and stubble of our lives. If we build our lives in a close relationship to Jesus, (Who is the perfect reflection of the Father), we will reside close to Him in the end. And it goes out from there. Those that didn't develop their relationship with Jesus will have their wood, hay and stubble burned away to the degree that they developed it. The New Jerusalem is a Spiritual City, and it is 1500 miles wide, 1500 miles long, and 1500 miles high. But it is in the shape of a pyramid, with the Throne at the top, and the believers in Jesus will live in it, determined by what each individual has left after the judgment of burning away the garbage of the soul. And where does the fire come from? The Throne, of course! We will all stand before Him. Daniel saw this fire proceeding from the Throne (Dan 7:10). All humanity will stand before Him and this fire, and what is left of our souls will be what remains forever. Our spirits and bodies were created by God, and they will be completely restored by Him as necessary. The difference between the believer in Jesus and the others is the closeness to the Throne and the City. When Jesus spoke of the outer darkness...(‘And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matt. 25:30), He was speaking of those He did not know, yet they believed in Him...they had no real relationship with Him, and they were cast out to where the non-believers will reside. They will be gnashing their teeth because of the realization of the fact that they lost out on what they could have had with Jesus, if they had only given their souls to Him. Matt. 16:24-27. The outer darkness is a place that is far from the LIGHT, which is Jesus. Their understanding will be lacking, but they will believe nonetheless. Those that ARE close to Jesus will BE close to Him, yet will have the ability to go anywhere. These things are states of being, not so much physical places, although in the Spiritual dimension, these things are mentioned as physical.
Another thing that I would like to mention is our disappointment with the church in general. The church is the spiritually assembled group of people that worship the true God. We have been around since the beginning. Its outward form has changed throughout the ages. There were those before Noah that worshipped, such as Enoch. There were those like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and his twelve sons. These were also part of the Spiritual church. Then there were the Hebrews that left Egypt, and were shown the Passover. These were the Passover church, all the way to the time of Jesus. They all worshipped the true God, yet in the way that they were shown. There was a transition of 40 years from leaving Egypt until this group entered fully into Passover in the Promised Land. The center of the Hebrew worship was the Temple. When Jesus died and rose from the dead, the true church became the church of Pentecost, and the Passover Church began to pass away. During this time, there was a transformation of 40 years, in which the Hebrews were given the grace to turn to Jesus, and at the end of that time, the Temple was destroyed, physically manifesting the end of that type of church.
The church as we know it has been operating in Pentecost, even though that Spirit that was given on Pentecost Sunday has dwindled. This is God's plan. He is getting us ready for the next stage, (or age) of the church. This will be the Tabernacles Church, also known as the Millennium. Just as Isaiah and Habakkuk said, " For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. The church will then "Tabernacle" with the Lord, and the remaining 1000 years will be used to culminate everything. In order to reach the next age, we have to pass through another transition period. I believe that we are in that right now. (I won't go into anymore specifics here, even though this is a time of great interest to most.)
So the church is in transition. After the transition, it will not be exactly the same. (compare Christianity to Judaism). All of the mixture, the lies, the misdirection, is being dealt with at present. Peter said that judgment begins at the house of God. So don't be surprised at the lack of love, the false teaching, all the confusion, etc. Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, and John all warned us about it. The wood hay and stubble in the church is being exposed so that it can be removed. Just seek Jesus with a true heart, because HE IS THE TRUTH. He is also the WORD. The answers can be found in the Word with the Spirit's help. The problem comes in implementing those answers. We do this by giving ourselves to Him. Our desires have to pass and we need to take on His desires if we want to complete this journey fully.
Don't give up on Jesus, because your relationship with Him is your anchor. It can't be found in anyone around us, or any teaching. Starting with Him, let Him teach you from His Word. When I became confused in all the various conflicting teachings, I went to Jesus and asked Him to teach me. He then told me this: John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." As you go to Him to learn, the Word will begin to line up, and the falseness will become more and more evident. But remember, the most important thing is love. Love your neighbor, love yourself, and most of all, love God.
Not all universalists believes as your saying. I'm a Universalist. I believe NO sin shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That means 0 sin. Not even the very smallest tiny sin. I believe in the complete eradication of sin and that is something the eternal torment crowd doesn't believe in.
Not all universalists believes as your saying. I'm a Universalist. I believe NO sin shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That means 0 sin. Not even the very smallest tiny sin. I believe in the complete eradication of sin and that is something the eternal torment crowd doesn't believe in.
I think most Christian Universalists believe this, trettep.
I think the Bible is clear that if one is not "born again" they are not going to see the Kingdom of God (John 3).
Now those that have received Christ being born again KNOW 100 percent as a Fact that this must happen in THIS lifetime.
How do they know that?
Because they have been GIVEN the truth by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling them. The imputed righteousness of God is now dwelling within them and they are Saved because of their Faith in Jesus Christ. The Father sees us sinners Justified by Christ as Holy "in Christ". One can only KNOW THIS when they are revealed it by God.
There is no post-mortem "born again" conversion. One is either seen as "in Christ" the Passover lamb offering or the wrath of God abides on them. This is the words of Jesus.
He says preach the gospel.. all that believe shall be saved and all that do not believe shall be damned.
Do you want to play with the words of Jesus?
Acts 3:23
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
The importance of "hearing" Jesus Christ. Does Destroyed sound like universalism?
I do not consider Universalists Christians because I do not believe that GOD sees them as Christians (as a whole). Can one be Saved and temporarily be deceived in believing in Universalism? I think so, but I think the Spirit will also reveal the truth to them.
I do believe it is another gospel. I believe it is another God and another JESUS. God has many WILLS.
Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
I believe that Peter is talking about Universalists in the following passage:
2 Peter 3:15-17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17
The debate will continue until Christ comes back. I believe those that are preaching the universal salvation message have set themselves up as enemies of Jesus Christ and the gospel preaching another Jesus and another gospel.
I think the Bible is clear that if one is not "born again" they are not going to see the Kingdom of God (John 3).
Now those that have received Christ being born again KNOW 100 percent as a Fact that this must happen in THIS lifetime.
How do they know that?
Because they have been GIVEN the truth by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling them. The imputed righteousness of God is now dwelling within them and they are Saved because of their Faith in Jesus Christ. The Father sees us sinners Justified by Christ as Holy "in Christ". One can only KNOW THIS when they are revealed it by God.
There is no post-mortem "born again" conversion. One is either seen as "in Christ" the Passover lamb offering or the wrath of God abides on them. This is the words of Jesus.
He says preach the gospel.. all that believe shall be saved and all that do not believe shall be damned.
Do you want to play with the words of Jesus?
Acts 3:23
And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
The importance of "hearing" Jesus Christ. Does Destroyed sound like universalism?
I do not consider Universalists Christians because I do not believe that GOD sees them as Christians (as a whole). Can one be Saved and temporarily be deceived in believing in Universalism? I think so, but I think the Spirit will also reveal the truth to them.
I do believe it is another gospel. I believe it is another God and another JESUS. God has many WILLS.
Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
I believe that Peter is talking about Universalists in the following passage:
2 Peter 3:15-17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17
The debate will continue until Christ comes back. I believe those that are preaching the universal salvation message have set themselves up as enemies of Jesus Christ and the gospel preaching another Jesus and another gospel.
Did God ever attempt to save the world? If you say yes, then you better be able to explain why that plan failed.
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