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In answer to Sir Noel,
The Bible says that God is just. If God punishes any of the wicked in the age to come, then he must punish them all. Likewise, if God gives life to any of the righteous in the age to come, then he must give life to them all. Yes, God is just, but from what reasoning do you conclude your statement. How do we determine who are the wicked, and who are the just in God's determination? To suggest that in matt 25:32, Jesus is only giving some of the rightous life, and only some of the wicked punishment, only to leave the rest of the earth at that time, without either life or punishment would be a bit a of stretch don't you think? So yes, I understand that all doesn't always mean everyone, but matt 25:32 isn't one of those cases. Let me use the righteous as an example. ALL of the righteous at this point will be raised in the First Resurrection. My main question here is, what is the determining factor in who is actually righteous? Jesus and the apostles gave guidelines to determine the answer to this, and it's not just as simple as "believing in Jesus".
You originally raised the point that maybe the all in matthew 25:32 wasn't everyone, so you agree now that it is?
In the age to come, everyone who remains on earth, both the righteous and eventually the wicked will receive God: The Bible never actually says that. Isaiah, in the verses you quote, is a look into the Age to come, but nowhere is all-inclusiveness a certainty. Gog and Magog, which come against God at the end of the Millennium are a case in point.
Yes, Gog and Magog come against God after the 1000 years expire and the devil comes to deceive them, not during.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season...And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.~Revelation 20:2-3,7-8
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11:6-9 One point I look at here, is, why did Isaiah speak of "my Holy Mountain" when speaking of not hurting nor destroying, and then change to speaking of "the earth" when it comes to being full of the knowledge of the Lord. Those are two different places, even though one is contained in another. It's like saying "my car is in the garage, therefore my car IS a garage". They might be equivalent, but not necessarily.
Both "the wolf" and "the lamb" dwelling together, Gods knowledge covering the whole earth as water covers the sea. That's everyone in the age to come. If I study and get knowledge directly from God, I may be very wise. Everyone could become wise in this way. But does that mean that I will be totally righteous? No, the knowledge of the Lord is a pathway to knowing Him, but it is not the determining factor pertaining to righteousness.
I'm not saying that the wicked become totally righteous. My point is that they aren't being cast away during the entire 1000 years, which shows the contradiction of everlasting punishment in matt 25:46.
Even if you still say matt 25:32 is only talking about some people at that time, and that only some of the wicked will be punished in the age to come (which i don't see how that's possible), it still wouldn't change what Isaiah 26:19-21 says regarding Gods wrath.
I see Peter's oration in the beginning of Acts, where he says "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" - This was a partial prophetic event, but it is to be repeated in a fuller degree in the Day of the Lord. Also, when Annanias and Saphira died for lying, Why didn't the rest of the liars on earth die? I believe that this event is also a foreshadow of the judgment to come in the coming Age, but it will continue on in an individual basis.
I'm not quite sure the point you were trying to make here.
Say what you will about other "everlasting punishment" passages in the Bible. But matt 25:41 & 46 cannot be translated as "everlasting" for the reasons that I've given. Yes, I agreed with that. I don't know why you thought that I refuted it.
That was more so directed towards this thread, not you.
The reason you have a problem with Jesus judging in the age to come might be because you were taught that there is only a one time Judgment. The great white throne Judgment is the final judgment but not the only judgment. There are many judgments, past, present and future, and Judgment is a process. The priests of the old testament sanctified themselves by animal sacrifice and were Judged by God on behalf on Israel, every year for Israel's sins Exodus 29:29-30. We are command to Judge ourselves to be chastened by God 1st Corinthians 11:31-32. And when God's Judgements Become manifest one final time, there will be none that will not serve God: You read me wrong here too. Please be cautious in reading things in that aren't there. I know that Jesus will be judging in the coming Age. That was His sly hint when He read Isaiah 61 and stopped in the middle of verse 2. He didn't come to judge the first time, but He definitely will be judging upon His second visit. The only thing is, we don't know how, and to what degree He will judge. And I also believe that the First Resurrection people will be judging in that age also, because they will have the full authorization to do so.
I think this was a misunderstanding on both our parts. I said was every single person that’s alive on earth will be gathered in matt 25:32, not every single person that ever lived on earth.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. Revelation 15:4
Yes, all nations WILL eventually come before Him and worship Him. But, just as it says about Egypt in Zech 14:18 - "And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." Apparently, there will be those who resist during the coming age. Judgments don't necessarily mean death. That's one of the reasons that this coming age will last for 1000 years. God works slowly and determinately to get the best results.
I know God works slowly, that's why I said Judgment is a process.
Also I never said the wicked will be sinless in the age to come, so I agree with you on that on. I'm just say that their punishment in matt 25:41&46 can't be "everlasting".
The wicked that are judged to die, WILL have an everlasting judgment. Take Annania and Saphira for example. The "part" of them that sinned was their decision to lie to the Holy Spirit and hold onto some of the money from the sale of their land. This part of them was a selfishness and lack of trust in God's ability to provide for them. This is the part of them that was judged, and the revealing of this was what killed them. As Jesus said in Luke 17:33, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." These two people tried to save their life of desiring to have something, and when they lied, they showed that they were trying to hide it and keep it secret. For this, the judgment of dying to this life came on them. They should have just told the truth. Unfortunately, they died, and their opportunity to correct that fault ended. They will not be raised in the First Resurrection, and at the Final White Throne judgment, the fire will consume that part of their lives forever. This is "everlasting" in that they will never ever regain what was lost. We do things like this all the time. If you buy a good T-Bone steak, you eat the meat and throw away the bone, (I hope!) and that bone has everlasting punishment in that it is consumed at the garbage dump, or ends up as a treat for a dog. But it will never exist again. Once all these things that oppose God in Annanias and Saphira's lives are consumed, they will enter into Heaven, but they will have suffered loss, in that they COULD have done it the right way, given that part of their lives to Jesus, and retained that part of their life, (or soul). It's the same with all of us. If we give these things to God now, before we die, we save that portion of our soul along with the rest of our life. If we keep these things to ourselves, we will end up losing them, because in the spiritual dimension they are wood, hay, and stubble. The final judgment won't take place for those people until the Final Throne Judgment, and then those things will not be able to withstand the fire proceeding from God. Paul also mentioned this when he said in 1 Corinthians 3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
I said they can't have an everlasting punishment, not Judgment.
Jesus never once told His listeners (the Jews) that if they believe in Him they would go to heaven.
What is the kingdom of God Jesus was speaking of? It is the kingdom Jesus will be setting up on the earth when He returns.
Jews who are causing snares will be cast out of that kingdom and have to live among the nations.
Paul, our apostle of the nations did tell US that our realm belongs in the heavens.
God has been choosing very specific individuals for the last 2000 years to be believing and those believers will be going to the heavens. This is so while Israel is set aside.
And what of all mankind who were not chosen to be believing? What of all humans who lived and died from Adam to Christ's day? Christ died for their sins too. Not only that, Christ ransomed ALL mankind and it is this reason why God will have all mankind to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
The mistake some Christians make is that they don't see God's overall plan for mankind. They only see God's plan for current believers.
Jesus never once told His listeners (the Jews) that if they believe in Him they would go to heaven.
What is the kingdom of God Jesus was speaking of? It is the kingdom Jesus will be setting up on the earth when He returns.
Jews who are causing snares will be cast out of that kingdom and have to live among the nations.
Paul, our apostle of the nations did tell US that our realm belongs in the heavens.
God has been choosing very specific individuals for the last 2000 years to be believing and those believers will be going to the heavens. This is so while Israel is set aside.
And what of all mankind who were not chosen to be believing? What of all humans who lived and died from Adam to Christ's day? Christ died for their sins too. Not only that, Christ ransomed ALL mankind and it is this reason why God will have all mankind to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
The mistake some Christians make is that they don't see God's overall plan for mankind. They only see God's plan for current believers.
This is SO true Eusebius! Most Christians wear blinders when it comes to seeing God's plan for the ages. Their viewpoint (and biggest fears) are wrapped up in their desire to 'get to heaven' and stay out of this 'eternal fire' that most believe are the only 2 choices. God is a BIG God, and His plan is big too!
Sciotamicks, in the Op Said : "1 Cor 15.22 is appealed to as supporting universalism.
That verse reads, "for just as in ha Adam all are dying, in the same way also in ha meshiach all will be made alive" (my translation). "
Hi Sciotamicks : I did not want to necessarily enter into any debate in this thread since I am not particularly interested in the debate itself. I did want to point out a couple of points regarding 1 Cor 15:22-23 and your base premise.
1) First, your translation that you both created and upon which you base your premise is incorrect.
You translated αποθνεσκουσιν as “are dying” (instead of "die"), thus incorrectly changing a non-progressive verb into a progressive one. I’m assuming the incorrect present participle in your English translation was added to support the theology and we all tend to make this mistake at times. .
The word is not “dying”, but “die”. Translators have correctly rendered this as “all die”, or “everyone dies”, but your attempt to change the translation to “are dying” is simply incorrect and any portion of your premise which uses this faulty data is likely to be tainted by the original error. Additionally, on searching, there are no manuscripts in critical texts which use a progressive form of this word in this case in 1 Cor 15:22
2) Secondly, it is not ultimate “salvation” (i.e. entry into a post judgment heaven) which greek αναστασιςνεκρων(“resurrection of the dead”) and ζωοποιηθησονται( being “made alive”) refer to (though they are part OF the larger process of salvation).
When Paul uses the word αναστασις (resurrection), he is speaking of αναστασις (resurrection) and any shift in meaning or addition to his speech must be forced upon it by the reader’s theology. Just as you added incorrect meaning and context to your translation, you must be careful to avoid repeating this habit in this case.
When Paul uses the word παντες (i.e. “all”), it means παντες (i.e. “all”). When Paul refers to all being made alive “in his own order” (or “rank”, "ταγματι") he is referring “order” in which they are to be made alive and not the “amount” that are being made alive, (since he’s already told us that ALL (παντες) are to be resurrected or made alive).
These are two very simple and specific errors. But they affect any incorrect premises based upon them as well as any discussions of the incorrect premise.
In any case, I wish you the very best of spiritual journeys in this life.
Clear
σεδρσιδρω
Last edited by Clear lens; 12-17-2013 at 12:30 PM..
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