Open Debate - Is Universalism Biblical - A Preterist's perspective (crucified, Jehovah)
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You seek a fleshly kingdom Eusebius, just like the Saduccees and Pharisses did. Little do you know, that will never happen.
Get back to studying the word of God with eyes that can see.
You'll be like the wicked witch of the west's sister like when the building lands on you.
The kingdom of God is both spiritual and physical.
Christ will rule the spiritual kingdom of God from a literal, physical kingdom in Israel and will rule over literal, physical kingdoms on earth during the 1000 year kingdom and new earth.
The really sad thing about preterism is: this is as good as it gets for humanity. Right now. Gheesh!
Get back to studying the word of God with eyes that can see.
You'll be like the wicked witch of the west's sister like when the building lands on you.
The kingdom of God is both spiritual and physical.
Christ will rule the spiritual kingdom of God from a literal, physical kingdom in Israel and will rule over literal, physical kingdoms on earth during the 1000 year kingdom and new earth.
The really sad thing about preterism is: this is as good as it gets for humanity. Right now. Gheesh!
Get back to studying the word of God with eyes that can see.
Eusebius, your comments are like dust. Provide an exegesis of the topic, the opening statement, and the posts therein, or else move on and let another attempt a sound refutation of what has been discussed. Assumptions and presuppositions don't cut it.
Here is where your view, and many other views err.
The gospels and epistles were written for us, not to us.
Just as in 1 Corinthians 15, is a letter, to the Corinthian church.
You cannot go outside of the bounds of the context or else the interpretation fails. This is hermeneutics and exegesis 101.
I'm not suggesting that we go outside the bounds of what is being discussed. I'm saying we should not set a bounds for the 100% of the discussion based on what is being discussed in 90% of the discussion.
Let me state it another way. Suppose believer A knows there is a resurrection while believer B rejects or doubts there is a resurrection. Suppose A writes B a letter.
What might we expect this letter to contain?
1. Probably the most important point would that if there is no resurrection then Christ was not raised -- this is a cental tenent of the gospel.
2. Another important point would be that if there is no resurrection, then what is become of dead believers? The are lost.
3. Another important point would be that we are preaching lies since we preach that Christ rose from the dead.
4. Another implication is what are we doing? Why are we wasting our time regarding the afterlife if there is none?
5. Another important point (especially if God cares about the fate of unbelievers) is that the unjust will not be resurrected and judged and whatever comes after that. Christ teaches about this and in various places in Paul does and in some places in the OT. So this doctrine is also considered important for believers.
We would expect that majority of the letter to be discussion the first four points. Those have the greastest impact on believers. But it would be a mistake to
a) apriori exclude the possibility the 5th point being discussed
b) force interpretation of the 5th point into the bounds of the first four points, making it about believers.
Back to 1 Cor 15. Most of the discourse is about the resurrection of believers or the impact on believers of not believing in the resurrection.
But this part is about the subjection of Christ's enemies. It is not about people who are in Christ.
1 Corinthains 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
This part is about subjecting all things to Christ, not just believers.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Most commentaries put verse 21 as applying to all mankind. Death came upon all men. They also put the first half of verse 22 as applying to all mankind. Some even put the second half of verse 22 as applying to all mankind, but not in the sense of a resurrection to life -- these are all ET believers.
1 Corintians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
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I showed you, in John 3:16, the sole scripture that defines Christ's sacrifice and who it entails. It entails the Government, the order, the covenant world in which God had established first in Adam when He brought him into the Garden, secondly in the Jews, and thirdly, with His death, removed the partition (Eph 2:14) to Jew and Gentile in that very covenantal order.
Christ died for all who walk by His light, who take up His cross, who lose their life for Him. That is who He died for. A ransom is paid for a slave.
We are slaves to sin. If that slave continues to live outside of what He asks for, then he will die in his sin. It is that simple.
You believe that Christ died for "all who walk by His light".
I believe that "Christ died for the ungodly"
You bleieve that christ died for a "Goverment... order... covenent world"
I believe that Christ died for all people... "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" and "he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"
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What extends beyond this lifetime? The ability to be saved?
We have no ability within ourselves regarding salvation anyway. While we do have the ability to choose, we have not the nature to choose righteously apart from God changing our hearts.
What is extends beyond this lifetime is God's ability to save and God's mercy.
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How?
I don't know how exactly. Here is what I believe to be true
The unjust will be raised
They will be judged.
They will be cast into the LOF and be outside the holy city
They will receive many stripes or few depending on what they knew.
When God's judgments are in the earth the people learn righteousness
The purpose of judgment is to demonstrate sin and consequences of sin so as show a person his sin, to show him he needs the Saviour from sin, and turn a person back to seeking God with all his heart.
The law teaches that once all the curse of the law is upon a person, he can still repent and God will show mercy
I'm not suggesting that we go outside the bounds of what is being discussed. I'm saying we should not set a bounds for the 100% of the discussion based on what is being discussed in 90% of the discussion.
I agree completely. And thank you for being orderly and sound in this debate. It speaks volumes of your fruit.
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Let me state it another way. Suppose believer A knows there is a resurrection while believer B rejects or doubts there is a resurrection. Suppose A writes B a letter.
What might we expect this letter to contain?
1. Probably the most important point would that if there is no resurrection then Christ was not raised -- this is a cental tenent of the gospel.
2. Another important point would be that if there is no resurrection, then what is become of dead believers? They are lost.
3. Another important point would be that we are preaching lies since we preach that Christ rose from the dead.
4. Another implication is what are we doing? Why are we wasting our time regarding the afterlife if there is none?
5. Another important point (especially if God cares about the fate of unbelievers) is that the unjust will not be resurrected and judged and whatever comes after that. Christ teaches about this and in various places in Paul does and in some places in the OT. So this doctrine is also considered important for believers.
We would expect that majority of the letter to be discussion the first four points. Those have the greastest impact on believers. But it would be a mistake to
a) apriori exclude the possibility the 5th point being discussed
b) force interpretation of the 5th point into the bounds of the first four points, making it about believers.
I will pause here and give a brief analysis. You are correct, however, in regards to 1 Cor 15 and the teaching of this resurrection, Paul is explicitly directing his discourse at believers and their dead kin who were once believers as well. We can venture outside of this text in regards to like-proofed texts that relate to this definitely, to make our case concerning the subject outside of the discourse, which are believers only, and find relevance to the unjust inclusively, as we see in Romans 1:
Emphasis mine:
And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: (speaking of himself and the Jewish seed)
Then he changes directive towards the Gentiles:
Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
and in Romans 2:
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
And apart from the Jewish Law, they are judged:
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
And because of the gospel being preached to them:
In the day (the resurreciton of the dead, when he hath put all the enemies under His feet) when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
After hearing the gospel and believing it, the Gentile:
..art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
And he goes on to explain the heart, which is what God sought in the first place, the circumscised heart. In context of "enemies as thy footstool", we must stay within the very events that surround it.
In Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool
The audience is in the temple, more specifically the scribe who is inquiring regarding his salvation. Jesus then takes His disciple out from the temple and they ask:
And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings [are here]!
Jesus answers:
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
The very context is the destruction of the temple, which occurred in 70 AD. He carries on with the Olivet Discourse, never venturing outside of the context of that specific event.
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Paul confirm this in Collosians 1:23:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
The enitre word of God, fulfilled at the end of his dispensation.
The same context of His Footstool can be harkened in Hebrews 1:
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. (The Parousia, the inheritance of everlasting life post resurection of the dead, the judgement of the just and unjust, death being defeated for those in Christ) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Harkens back to Sinai from the prophetic prose of Isaiah:
Isa 51:15,16 But I [am] the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts [is] his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.
Take us to to Hebrews 10:
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. .......This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Which takes us to:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ehp 1:22,23 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Which is his body (the church), the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
When did the church, the covenant people, become all in all with Him?
Post resurreciton of the dead, the judgement of the just and unjust.
This resurrection ws the final abolishment of Death, wherein, death had finally been conquered how?
By the elimination of His number 1 enemy who is:
Micah 2 O [thou that art] named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? [are] these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? Even of late my people is risen up as an enemy: ye pull off the robe with the garment from them that pass by securely as men averse from war. The women of my people have ye cast out from their pleasant houses; from their children have ye taken away my glory for ever. Arise ye, and depart; for this [is] not [your] rest: because it is polluted, it shall destroy [you], even with a sore destruction.
And back to 1 Cor 15:
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
Wherein the Law, the elements/stoicheion:
Gal 4 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
2 Peter 3 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (perfectly aligned with Christ's Olivette Discourse/Destruction of the temple)
Paul bringing home the theme of being dead, within the context of the Elements/Rudiments/Pirnciple of the Law:
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
In conclusion, the elements, the rudiments, the order of the Covenant (kosmos) world that the Jews lived under, stemmed from the temple practices, and as Peter proclaimed, that those very elements were to be burned up, destroyed, again which sends us to Revelation 21 in regards to the New Heavens and Earth ushered in, which is post ressurection of the dead, post enemies under His foot, post destruction of temple, and post abolishment of sin and death, which all fall in line together cohesively t the close of the "end of the age"/Mosaic age which took place in 70 AD.
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Back to 1 Cor 15. Most of the discourse is about the resurrection of believers or the impact on believers of not believing in the resurrection.
It is about all of the believers in that congregation disturbed by the idea, the sole purpose why the letter was written, to correct them.
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But this part is about the subjection of Christ's enemies. It is not about people who are in Christ.
1 Corinthains 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Of course it is. But this part is written to the Corinthian Congregation, as the same motif was repeated throughout his epistles directed at different audiences. But this one, was directed at this specific audience.
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You believe that Christ died for "all who walk by His light".
I believe that "Christ died for the ungodly"
Those that walk by His light were once ungodly. At least I was.
But now I am not, so therefore I can take part in the Tree fo Life.
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You believe that christ died for a "Goverment... order... covenent world"
That specific order, is the order in which God made with mankind. OUtside of that order, is well...outside. Rev 21-22
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I believe that Christ died for all people... "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" and "he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"
Sure He did. But it is within that specific order that mankind must enter into to receive the blessings therein.
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We have no ability within ourselves regarding salvation anyway. While we do have the ability to choose, we have not the nature to choose righteously apart from God changing our hearts.
We are condemened without Christ, however, in Christ, is the beginning.
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The unjust will be raised
They will be judged.
They will be cast into the LOF and be outside the holy city
They will receive many stripes or few depending on what they knew.
When God's judgments are in the earth the people learn righteousness
The purpose of judgment is to demonstrate sin and consequences of sin so as show a person his sin, to show him he needs the Saviour from sin, and turn a person back to seeking God with all his heart.
The law teaches that once all the curse of the law is upon a person, he can still repent and God will show mercy
God's mercy endures throughout the ages
The gates of the city remain open day and night
Judgement on earth, or in Heaven?
The Jews are a perfect example of the judgements that produced repentance, but the text is explicit about the separation between those that are in the city, and those that are not. There are specific qualities of mankind in which they harbor that separates them from partaking in the Tree of Life, and as long as those qualities continue, their access is refused. Rev 21-22
Precisely why the gates remain open. Repentance and the turning from our sins of the "person" can be washed in His blood. But it is up to that person, the regenration of his spirit, and his profession of his faith, that grants him access into the city. Once than man passes from this life, that chance of repenatance, is lost...forever.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-18-2010 at 03:16 PM..
Eusebius, your comments are like dust. Provide an exegesis of the topic, the opening statement, and the posts therein, or else move on and let another attempt a sound refutation of what has been discussed. Assumptions and presuppositions don't cut it.
I already did. Remember my lenghty post concerning 1 Corinthians 15:22-28? But, of course, you didn't like what I posted because it directly refutes your preterism. Why don't you just move on young man?
I already did. Remember my lenghty post concerning 1 Corinthians 15:22-28? But, of course, you didn't like what I posted because it directly refutes your preterism. Why don't you just move on young man?
How does it refute Preterism? Just because I didn't agree with it is besides the point. The fact is, that you have shown your inability in regards to your view, to apply a sound exegesis. You have disregarded the directive of Paul's letter, and that was to the Corinthian congregation.
Not a generation 2000+ years in the future. Again, you have failed.
Is there any Universalists other than ThyKingdomCome, that can debate in an orderly fashion?
I already have here but you didn't like it:
In order for God to be All in all, death must be abolished for ALL mankind.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is not talking about God being All in just the church.
When is this abolishment of death to take place. . .
1Cor.15:26 "The last enemy is being abolished: death."
There are several events which must take place prior to death's abolishment:
Christ must give up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:24)
Christ must quit reigning (1 Cor.15:25)
All sovereignty, authority and power must be nullified (1 Cor.15:24)
After the above occur, death then will be abolished.
Notice all the above three events are still going on in John's Revelation, so Paul sees way beyond Revelation.
In Revelation the second death is still active so death is not yet abolished. So the only death left can only be the second death needing abolishment. When the second death is abolished then all those held by it will come forth, be subjected to Christ and then they will have God All in all of them just as He will be in us.
So there are really three different groups in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28
"Yet each in his own class"
Christ, the Firstfruit (class) 15:23
They that are Christ's (class) 15:23
Thereafter the consummation (class) 15:24
Classes 1 and 2 above do not nearly fill up the "even as all in Adam, all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be vivified" so there needs to be a third group verse 24.
Spiros Zodhiates, a great Greek scholar says concerning 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 that, "yes, this passage is dealing with all mankind but, God will be all to the unbeliever that He must be and all to the believer He desires to be." At least Zhodiates got it 50% right. It is talking about all mankind. But it is not about God being "all to all" but ALL IN ALL.
And now, come to find out from sciotamicks, the above is not for us since, according to him, "that was to the Corinthian congregation." (Italics mine).
But if we look at who Paul wrote it to we see this:
1Co 1:2 to the ecclesia of God which is in Corinth, hallowed in Christ Jesus, called saints, together with all in every place who are invoking the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:"
I invoke the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
I guess sciotamicks doesn't want us to believe that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is for us today or for ANY other church in Paul's day. Only the Corinthians were to know Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day. Too bad for all the other churches.
But really, so what IF it was written only to the Corinthians (which it wasn't) but IF it was, so what? Sciotamicks cannot answer the sound logic of my post other than to glibly say "that was written to the Corinthians"! And then he wants to know "if there is anyone who can debate him in an orderly fashion"?
We need to ask some questions concerning 1 Corinthians 15:22-28:
Did Christ hand over the kingdom to God when Paul wrote Corinthians? NO
Did Christ quit reigning when Paul wrote that to the Corinthians? No.
Did all sovereignty, authority and power go away when Paul wrote to the Corinthians? No
Was death abolished when Paul wrote to the Corinthians? No.
Was all mankind subjected to Christ when Paul wrote to the Corinthians? No.
Was God All in me when Paul wrote the Corinthians? No (I wasn't born yet).
Do you see how Preterism makes a mockery of God's promises? It turns His promises into imagination . . . you just have to have a good imagination. You have to **pretend** these things have already come to pass.
Can any Preterist debate me on this in an orderly fashion?
Also, if death was abolished WHEN (according to sciotamicks) Paul wrote to the Corinthians, then why was Paul put to death?
And how come many of the Corinthians died as a result of their sins . . .
1Cor.11:30 Because of this many among you are weak and sick, and many have died.
If this is the outcome of God being All in all, it sure is a bad thing to have God all in you. But sciotamicks believes God is already ALL in all in the church! I gotta hand it to sciota, he sure has a great imagination! But that is what Preterism does to a person. It trains one to make better use of the imagination.
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