Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Step away for a few days and look what the cat dragged in...LOL The doctrines of the Jesuit's (Preterism) are in full swing.
Can't say I blame his followers (they never did believe in Justification by Christ alone). I think our good friend Scio has been eatin' the burgers instead of flippin' 'em .
I haven't really studied the doctrines of the Jesuit's, so I'll observe this debate for awhile, but others more able than I have looked into this matter and have this to say:
Can any Preterist debate me on this in an orderly fashion?
I can. Easily.
Quote:
In order for God to be All in all, death must be abolished for ALL mankind.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is not talking about God being All in just the church.
When is this abolishment of death to take place. . .
1Cor.15:26 "The last enemy is being abolished: death."
The deifinition of Death is 1 Corinthinans 15 is tied in wth the Law.
The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
I have already placed the subject of death in this context, but it is the wirter's view that has denied this defiintion, and has paralleled death to be separate from the Law, that which is ONLY a physical death.
This death is none other than spritual death. The death that Adam, head of the First Heavens and Earth, Head of the Beggarly Elements, Head of the Covenant of Death, had experienced in the spirit.
James taught the coming of Christ was near:
James 5:8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming (Parousia) is near
Each of these comings conform to the timing Jesus promised in the Olivet Discourse.
1 Cor 15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (Parousia)
1 Thess 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (Parousia)
1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming (Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming (Parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep
1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming (Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him
2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Parousia)
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (Parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming (Parousia) of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming (Parousia)
Quote:
Christ must give up the kingdom, Christ must quit reigning (1 Cor.15:25) (1 Cor.15:24) All sovereignty, authority and power must be nullified (1 Cor.15:24
We are going to dicuss all of these at great lengths.
Eph 1:21 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
The wisdom that Paul preaches is not human wisdom "nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought".
The princes of this world are those who crucified the Lord, the Jewish and Roman leaders according to 1 Corinthians 2:8. The wise men in the world cannot comprehend God and His wisdom. 1 Corinthians 15:24-25 tells us the wisdom of this world will come to nought when Christ returns:
1 Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Philippians 3:21: who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
He says that it is, "according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." This change in the believers was to occur when Christ subdued all things. When did that happen?
1 Corinthians 15:24-26: Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Christ's glorious power was made manifest in the second coming when he destroyed spiritual death and brought immortality.
Believers, we have immortality now, but we dwell in a mortal body. When we die physically, our immortal spirit will put on an immortal body and we will forever dwell with the Lord.
If Paul is not preaching human wisdom, then what is he preaching? 1 Corinthians 2:7 gives the answer:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.
The `but' which begins this verse is a strong adversative to emphasize a contrast between divine wisdom and the wisdom of the world. Paul claims that his message came not from reason but revelation.
The word `Mystery' is the Greek word musterion; in its Biblical use it is not something that is mysterious but a secret that man cannot know without God revealing it. A biblical mystery is only understood by revelation. It is something that was hidden in the Old Testament but revealed in the New Testament. The mystery Paul is talking about is the cross, the doctrine of atonement as other Scripture makes clear:
1 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
The mystery revealed in the gospel is how men can become godly. Ephesians 3:1-6 reveals the mystery of the Gentiles becoming fellow heirs with Israel and partakers of the promises. The mystery is only understood through revelation:
Ephesians 3:1-6 (NKJV) For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 2:7 goes on to say that the mystery was ordained by God before the creation of this world. The doctrine of the atonement was not some new idea or an afterthought after man's fall; it was newly revealed in its entirety with Jesus' completed work on the cross, but it had been ordained before the world began. The word ordained is from the Greek word proorizo means to set a boundary. In this text, proorizo has a prefix which means before. So the word literally means to set a boundary before or to determine beforehand. This verb is used six times in the New Testament. It is translated `determined before' in Acts 4:28:
(verse 27) For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before [proorizo] to be done.
Four times this verb is translated predestinate which means to determine before hand as in Ephesians 1:4-6:
...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
Before the world began, God determined the message of the cross and established the plan. In the counsels of eternity, within the eternal Godhead a plan of salvation is laid out which is the wisdom of God. This is the covenant of redemption. The death of Jesus Christ was ordained by God in eternity past as we see in Acts 2:22-23:
Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know; Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death.
The return of Jesus Christ is mentioned in every one of the New Testament books except for Galatians and the very short books of second and third John and Philemon. The return of Christ is a major theme of the New Testament. As you study this theme of the return of Christ, you find that the first century church expected the Lord to return in their lifetime. They thought this because Jesus taught a first century return, and so did the apostles.
Matthew 16:27-28: For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
Verse 27 clearly speaks of the second coming; He comes with the angels to reward every man. So far, no problem, but look at the next verse. "I say to YOU, there are some standing HERE who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Who are the "YOU" of this verse? Verse 24 tells us that Jesus is speaking to his disciples. So, Jesus is saying to his disciples who were standing there that some of them would still be alive when He returned in the second coming.
If you are going to believe what Jesus is saying here, If you are going to hold to the TIME of his second coming, you are going to have to have a paradigm shift in your view of the NATURE of the second coming. His coming was not a physical destruction of the planet but a spiritual change of covenants.
The last enemy is death. Death is in sin, and the strength of sin is in the Law. The Law is in the Old Covenant, and the Old Covenant is in Apostate Israel, the enemy of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15: 24. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
We refer to a passage in the middle of the book of Revelation, which was rightly assigned as fulfilled at AD 70:
Rev 11: 15. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!''
This is also a reflection back to the Rock-Kingdom of Dan 2, in which the Kingdom overcame all previous—and ALL—physical rule by virtue of becoming a Kingdom that COULD NOT be ruled by a physical kingdom! This was done by the switch in the Kingdom permanently from physical to spiritual—and it was fulfilled during the "ten toes" kingdom of the Romans.
Dan 2: 44. "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
All rule and authority is now Christ’s, and no physical rule can any longer reign over the Kingdom. This is borne out later in Revelation:
Rev 15: 3. And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! 4. Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your judgments have been manifested.''
Christ has put all rule under His feet!
The final enemy?
1 Cor 15: 26. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
The proper rendering here of the word ‘destroyed’ is ‘made powerless’, NOT ‘ceased to exist’. This is a critical difference.
The Greek word <katargeo> does not mean destroy or annihilate, it merely means to "make of no effect" or to "strip of power". We as Christians don’t have to fear death, for it no longer has any power over us. Back to the middle of Revelation:
Rev 14: 13. Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: `Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' '' "Yes,'' says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.''
This verse is often overlooked.
But it is quite clear—the power of death was broken with the change from the Jewish age to the "age to come" at AD 70.
Death has been overcome for those in Christ, and God is now all in all with His people, only, through Jesus Christ. Christ died to redeem the covenant of DEATH that Israel was married into, and through that redemption and fulfillment of that very covenant, now Christians, can rightly be in complete harmony with their maker, God.
Eusebius, would you like to refute each of these statements?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-19-2010 at 01:15 PM..
Step away for a few days and look what the cat dragged in...LOL The doctrines of the Jesuit's (Preterism) are in full swing.
Doctrines of the Jesuit huh?
Read on AlabamaStorm,
EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 - 340) Extract from the 'Theophania'
"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished.I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.'
Quote:
Can't say I blame his followers (they never did believe in Justification by Christ alone). I think our good friend Scio has been eatin' the burgers instead of flippin' 'em .
You believe the contrary. You believe, since Christ hasn't come again, that your salvation is not complete. I for one, believe He has, therefore my justified salvation is complete.
Quote:
I haven't really studied the doctrines of the Jesuit's, so I'll observe this debate for awhile, but others more able than I have looked into this matter and have this to say:
So why enter until you read more on it?
Quote:
Hey Scio: Listen up homeboy,...give us old guys some respect, OK? When Eusebius and I enter the forum you're to rise up and honor us, got that?
I honor you and Eusebius. This is a debate, and I asked for you all to follow the guidelines of the debate. I open with a statement, and you refute the points I made. After some jargon on Eusebius' part, and direct insults towards me, he was put in his place, and he replied respectively. So I refuted his argument. That is how it works.
Your bishops planted the seed, the Jesuit's watered it and you've harvested it...LOL Yes indeed!
Quote:
You believe the contrary. You believe, since Christ hasn't come again, that your salvation is not complete. I for one, believe He has, therefore my justified salvation is complete.
Christ came once to make my Justification complete my friend.
Heb 9:12 neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
Like Abraham, I've believed the promises of God through faith:
Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
Perhaps as yet (subjectively) we've not been glorified, but objectively (God's declaration of it being so) has occurred in Christ, who sits at the right hand of God to intercede for us. Praise God for that
Rom 8:34 who is he that is condemning? Christ is He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God--who also doth intercede for us.
Quote:
So why enter until you read more on it?
To admonish your attitude towards your elders...LOL
This death is none other than spritual death. The death that Adam, head of the First Heavens and Earth, Head of the Beggarly Elements, Head of the Covenant of Death, had experienced in the spirit.
So in Corinthians, Christ died. Did He have sin? Did He die a spiritual death? Was Christ to do away with spiritual death?
Away with Preterism nonesense!
Christ died a physical death to undo the physical death all mankind get due to Adam. He didn't die a spiritual death to undo a spiritual death.
The same death Christ died as written in Corinthians is the same death Christ will abolish in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
Seriously, sciotamicks, you just are not thinking things through to their logical conclusion.
Your bishops planted the seed, the Jesuit's watered it and you've harvested it...LOL Yes indeed!
Did you bother with Eusebius, or maybe even I Clement. I see you haven't adressed that yet.
Quote:
Christ came once to make my Justification complete my friend.
I agree. Little do you know of Preetrism but from what you read of the scoffers.
Quote:
Like Abraham, I've believed the promises of God through faith:
As do we.
Quote:
Perhaps as yet (subjectively) we've not been glorified, but objectively (God's declaration of it being so) has occurred in Christ, who sits at the right hand of God to intercede for us. Praise God for that
Here is were you stumble. I have ben glorified. His kingdom reigns now.
You are in the service of the Holy Priest and King line, spread the gospel, so His kingdom continues to increase.
Little do you know of the view do you? Please educate yourself. Didn't I send you some links before?
Quote:
Rom 8:34 who is he that is condemning? Christ is He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God--who also doth intercede for us.
he already has my friend.
Quote:
To admonish your attitude towards your elders...LOL
I know you do...LOL as likewise I do you.
Cheers! We are the same in God's eyes Alabama. You and I are clothed with His blood, and the Lord sees no sin or blemish in us. We accepted His sacrifce for us, God in the flesh, and with that, He is forever in us, completely.
So in Corinthians, Christ died. Did He have sin? Did He die a spiritual death? Was Christ to do away with spiritual death?
In Christ I live, forever. Spiritual death has no meaning to me.
Was Christ forsaken by God? What does this mean to you?
Quote:
Seriously, sciotamicks, you just are not thinking things through to their logical conclusion.
On the contrary, you aren't Your view has been infected with futurist jargon, and strays from the text in every way but one. Sola scripture Eusebius. Interpret it with itself. None other.
Throw away your left behind novels. That stuff is science fiction and has no meaning to the 1st century apostolic commission.
Eusebius wrote:
So in Corinthians, Christ died. Did He have sin? Did He die a spiritual death? Was Christ to do away with spiritual death?
Away with Preterism nonesense!
Christ died a physical death to undo the physical death all mankind get due to Adam. He didn't die a spiritual death to undo a spiritual death.
The same death Christ died as written in Corinthians is the same death Christ will abolish in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
Seriously, sciotamicks, you just are not thinking things through to their logical conclusion.
sciotamicks lame response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
In Christ I live, forever. Spiritual death has no meaning to me.
Was Christ forsaken by God? What does this mean to you?
Notice sciotamicks doesn't really answer my questions. Rather than confront his error head on he goes off on a tangent hoping to side track the real issues. 1st he says the death in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is a spiritual death. I call him on that and then he glibly says "spiritual death has no meaning to [him]."
Quote:
sciotamicks wrote:
On the contrary, you aren't Your view has been infected with futurist jargon, and strays from the text in every way but one. Sola scripture Eusebius. Interpret it with itself. None other.
Notice he can't stand in the light? He states the death is a spiritual death and then I asked him if Christ died a spiritual death to take away spiritual death for mankind. Rather than answer that he lathers on the b.s.
Quote:
Throw away your left behind novels. That stuff is science fiction and has no meaning to the 1st century apostolic commission.
I don't read "left behind novels" and don't have any either so why lie about what I have and what I read? It is because this is the only lame answer you have to my post that cast a brilliant light on your subterfuge.
Notice sciotamicks doesn't really answer my questions. Rather than confront his error head on he goes off on a tangent hoping to side track the real issues. 1st he says the death in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is a spiritual death. I call him on that and then he glibly says "spiritual death has no meaning to [him]."
What does corruptible mean to you?
What incorruptible mean to you?
First must come what is sown, the body, which dies.
The incorruptible never dies. This is your eternal body. This is what was received at Christ Parousia, His coming, that lined up with EVERY time text and verse that surrounded His coming in that it was VER NEAR, and was to occur at the close of the Mosaic age, with the destruction of the temple and the buring of the beggarly elements.
Why can't you see this?
It is right there in the text.
The corruptible is the body that dies, decays, and will always be so.
What never dies, is your eternal body, the incorruptible.
Quote:
Notice he can't stand in the light? He states the death is a spiritual death and then I asked him if Christ died a spiritual death to take away spiritual death for mankind. Rather than answer that he lathers on the b.s.
Now you are prone to profanity on a forum of believers.
Am I striking a few nerves on you?
You need to figure out what I meant, or is it hard for you to discern the mystery Paul speaks of? It appears that way. Re-read the opening statement, and 1 Corithians 15. Then get back to me.
Quote:
I don't read "left behind novels" and don't have any either so why lie about what I have and what I read? It is because this is the only lame answer you have to my post that cast a brilliant light on your subterfuge.
I just assumed based on your eschatology. That is how it appears. My apologies. Your premillenialism is in error, as I have shown and it disregards the message of proximity the apostles hoped form, and cast false prophecy on each and every one of them.
So in Corinthians, Christ died. Did He have sin? Did He die a spiritual death? Was Christ to do away with spiritual death?
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
What is spiritual death? It is being cut-off from the presence of God. This is ultimately the penalty for sin so that if a person dies "unsaved," they will be cut-off from the presence of God forever.
Was Christ cut off? Why was He cut off?
Yes, in Christ, you will never experience the spiritual death.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.
