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And it must be done this side of death. Afterwards, it is too late.
Except no scripture says that. The scriptures say God's mercy endures through the ages which is the opposite of your "too late" philosophy.
ET is based 99% on aionion and owlam supposedly meaning "everlasting" except the scriptures apply both of those words to things that are not everlasting, including consequences of sin that are not everlasting.
I believe what Mike was referring to was those that believe He is not God.
But then again, I may be wrong about what he meant.......
No, what I am saying is that salvation requires making the decision to believe in Christ as your Savior, and that you must do it this side of death, because afterwards, it is too late.
I was writing my other post while that other poster posted his post, and so I had no idea of what he posted until I posted my post. How many times can you say post in the same sentence?
The universalist belief is that you can be saved after death. This is heresy, and is straight from Satan.
Except no scripture says that. The scriptures say God's mercy endures through the ages which is the opposite of your "too late" philosophy.
ET is based 99% on aionion and owlam supposedly meaning "everlasting" except the scriptures apply both of those words to things that are not everlasting, including consequences of sin that are not everlasting.
Yes it does. Hebrews 9:27. And use some common sense. The Bible constantly warns of the need to believe in Christ. If you were just going to be able to believe afterward, there would be no need for such urgency.
And the Bible makes it clear that there will be those who do not believe, and will remain under condemnation. Universalists ignore this.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-17-2009 at 08:15 PM..
It should be obvious how Mikes words are false. Mike wrote that Universalists ignore the need to believe in Christ while I just stated that one must be born again to be saved, which requires belief in Christ.
I'm not so sure that UR's would agree with "must". For "must" then has implications if one doesn't believe, God would hold unbelief accountable.
Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
I could name a few UR's who would effectively argue that it doesn't matter what you believe in, for at some point in the hereafter you'll get "converted". If that is the case, belief in Jesus while alive is not neccessary.
Except no scripture says that. The scriptures say God's mercy endures through the ages which is the opposite of your "too late" philosophy.
ET is based 99% on aionion and owlam supposedly meaning "everlasting" except the scriptures apply both of those words to things that are not everlasting, including consequences of sin that are not everlasting.
Context. When aionion is used for God and when it is used for the fate of those who die without believing in Christ, it means eternal. As does the emphatic 'eis tous aionas ton aionon'. To the ages of the ages, or forever and ever. Now, if you have the slightest bit of desire to know the truth of the matter, then you would do well to do some serious research into it. If on the other hand, you simply desire to promote heresy, then that is what you will continue to do.
Yes it does. Hebrews 9:27. And use some common sense.
How many examples do you want of people being saved out from within God's wrath and judgments. Since when does being judged by God imply that God is not ready to be merciful anymore?
Quote:
The Bible constantly warns of the need to believe in Christ. If you were just going to be able to believe afterward, there would be no need to for such urgency.
Of course there would be warnings. Who wants to incur the wrath of God. Who wants curse instead of blessing, even if the curse is not everlasting?
Do parents strongly warn their children of punishments and consequences? Does that make the consequences everlasting?
Quote:
And the Bible makes it clear that there will be those who do not believe, and will remain under condemnation. Universalists ignore this.
In your mind. Whoever believes not, the wrath of God abides on him. Now how many examples do you want of someone within the wrath of God, who believed not, who later repented from within God's wrath and were then saved by God?
Deuteronomy 28-29 is all about the wrath of God. Warnings about the curse vs the blessing. Deuteronomy 30 then talks about repenting from within the wrath of God after the consequences and the curse are upon that person.
Of course it is also warning and pleading men not to recieve the curse in the first place.
Jesus also said "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ ransomed all" (1 Tim.2:4-6) and "God is the Saviour of all mankind, specially them that believe. These things command and teach" (1 Tim.4:10,11) to the apostle Paul to tell us.
Let's deal with 1 Tim 2:4-6 exegetically why don't we?
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
θέλει - present indicative action of θέλω to wish or to desire with an infinitive to ἄνθρωπος an aorist passive infinitive of σῴζω...to be saved.
In compliance and infinitive with the verb θέλει - to wish and to desire as we noted above... ἐπίγνωσις - the knowledge, recognition directed at a particular object which is - ἐλθεῖν - truth. ἐλθεῖν - truth is in compliance and is in direct reference to the preceding infinitive which is the knowledge of that, in this life presently and preceding the afterlife, which is apart or separate from ἄνθρωπος - man, in the flesh.
This action is purely based on 1 Tim 2:5, in that it is needed for Christ, the mediator - μεσίτης, to be σῴζω - saved, and this only includes those ἄνθρωπος - men, living in this life presently, not after the present cf. Matt 20:28. He gave His life for a ἀντίλυτρον - ransom, the price paid for the release of a slave...
This preposition implies and compounds the need for an exchange between the two...Christ and the man, presently....not after life.
So you see, 1 Tim 2:4-6 does indeed show us that Christ did give His life for all mankind, but in this letter to Timothy, written to another Christian, Paul is compounding the necessity for mankind to receive Christ here and now, or with proper hermeneutical application, the latter 1st century men and women, and that there is a need for Him in their life in order to receive salvation....from that specific mediator Jesus Christ.
UR is a noble claim for those wanting to continue living in their sins, but a false one at that, and has rightly been usurped by the majority of theologians that have examined the various Unie claims throughout the past two millennia. You must accept Christ now, in this life, in order to receive eternal life that He ransomed His life for "all" that receive the gospel.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-17-2009 at 08:32 PM..
Reason: Spelling again.....:(
How many examples do you want of people being saved out from within God's wrath and judgments. Since when does being judged by God imply that God is not ready to be merciful anymore?
Of course there would be warnings. Who wants to incur the wrath of God. Who wants curse instead of blessing, even if the curse is not everlasting?
Do parents strongly warn their children of punishments and consequences? Does that make the consequences everlasting?
In your mind. Whoever believes not, the wrath of God abides on him. Now how many examples do you want of someone within the wrath of God, who believed not, who later repented from within God's wrath and were then saved by God?
Deuteronomy 28-29 is all about the wrath of God. Warnings about the curse vs the blessing. Deuteronomy 30 then talks about repenting from within the wrath of God after the consequences and the curse are upon that person.
Of course it is also warning and pleading men not to recieve the curse in the first place.
Whatever punishments or disciplines from God that are put upon those who are alive, can be removed by God, if or when that person turns back toward God. That concerns the living. Divine discipline in time is not the same as eternal punishment after death.
What part of Matt. 25:41 do you not understand? ''Then He will also say to those on His left, ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'' ( And what part of this do you not understand? That if eternal life means eternal, and it does, then eternal punishment means eternal.)
And what part of this do you not understand? At the very end of human history; at the end of the last dispensation, at the Great White Throne Judgment, Jesus Christ as the righteous judge will send the unbeliever away into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 ''And if anyones name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.''
There aren't any examples of context around the words aionion, owlam applied to judgments that show that they are everlasting. But there are examples where the context around the words aionion and owlam shows that those aionion consequences are not everlasting.
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When aionion is used for God and when it is used for the fate of those who die without believing in Christ, it means eternal. As does the emphatic 'eis tous aionas ton aionon'. To the ages of the ages, or forever and ever.
Because you said so.
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