The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation (sin, Christ)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
From what I have seen from your posts is just New Age propaganda and jargon..you have continuously shown me and the rest of the forum your lack of scriptural discernment in all areas of the word of God. The mere fact based on your foundational beliefs are not only contrary to the scripture but gnostic and platonic in nature. I hope you are enjoying your light ride through the galaxy of private interpretations. Bon à rien!
Well you must not have seen very many of my 3500 posts, Sciotamicks. Not surprising given the demonstrated lack of quality of your research. άχρηστο και ασήμαντο παλιάνθρωπο
That's my point. If you deny that aionas, means eternal, than in view of the last half of the verse, you have the paradox of an unending age.
That does not make sense. You mean if I accept that aionas means "eternal" then I have the paradox of an unending age. The very term "unending age" is a contradiction in terms. Do you know what that means?
Quote:
ouk estai telos=not shall be finish-consummation
Quote:
consummation means 'to complete' or 'to end.'
''His Kingdom will have no end.''
This is what it actually says:
Luk 1:33 "His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And OF His kingdomthere shall be no consummation."
It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."
This confirms what Daniel said:
Dan 7:14 to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."
So "consummation" means "not be confined" to just one place like Israel.
Heb. 1:8 God the Father speaking:''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is Forever and ever.''
Quote:
Rev. 22:1 ''And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the LAMB,''
Rev. 22:3 ''And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it.'' 5) ...and they shall reign forever and ever.''
Again, wrong version. Bad version. Here is a version more in line with the Greek:
Heb 1:8 Yet to the Son: "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eon, And a scepter of rectitude is the scepter of Thy kingdom."
Rev 22:1 And he shows me a river of water of life, resplendent as crystal, issuing out of the throne of God and the Lambkin."
Notice it differentiates between "God" and between "the Lambkin." Also, do you really believe Jesus is going to be morphed into a literal young Lambkin?
Also, if I go to a football game and tell a person that my dad and I purchased a seat in a booth and I tell that person they must get up because this is "my dad's and my seat" would you think I and my dad are one and the same being?
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more any doom, and the throne of God and of the Lambkin shall be in it. And His slaves shall be offering divine service to Him."
Rev 22:4 And they shall be seeing His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads."
Rev 22:5 And night shall be no more, and they have no need of lamplight and sunlight, for the Lord God shall be illuminating them. And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons."
They shall be reigning for the eons of the eons (i.e., the final two eons). If they reign eternally over humanity, this shows there will be insubjection in God's universe for eternity. The very fact that Christ will quit reigning proves that all insubjection is done away. Christ will have ruled so perfectly that He will rule out all rule and subject Himself to God. Then God will be All in all.
Quote:
Christ will deliver up the Kingdom to ''God even the Father,'' [that the triune God- the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] may be all in all. The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb.
Quote:
Jesus Christ reigns forever and ever.
Dear Mike,
That's the demonic pagan version. The bible knows of no such demonic perverse concept of "triune God." The Pauline Bible version is much better:
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 states:
1Co 15:24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."
1Co 15:25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
1Co 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."
1Co 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"
UR is a false claim, and we will attack it like everyone else has in the past, the very reason why the fathers that supported it, were excommunicated, and why it has relatively been silenced for over a millennia until Darwinism and "enlightened" thought derived from gnostic beliefs from Plato to the heretic and false scribe Origen, who butchered the word of God, came on the scene a century and a half past. This garbage will once again be squashed into silence from layman to council alike, and I will take part, just like Mike is here, and elsewhere, to make sure that this pagan idealism of the butchered faith, never rises from the ashes ever again.
If anyone of you URer's want to to be considered with any merit, you have to use only scripture to support your case with the word AIONIOS, and if you decide to step outside of scripture to support your claim, as I see so prevalently, your claim itself will be worthless to those here of the faith. This word, like I said, has been used to define a lifetime, to infinite and eternal lengths without end, that it cannot be supported in any way to be presented to adhere to "an age" or period of time, when its use is inconsistent throughout the secular world.
SOLA SCRIPTURA or concede to ignorance.
...this is good......no, you don't understand...I mean THIS IS REALLY, REALLY GOOD!!!...
Such was the case over a thousand years ago, and such is the case now.
Your claims will disappear faster than it resurfaced.
Actually it's just the opposite. These ET myths are being exposed for what they are and are falling by the wayside and will never regain their former prominence. Oh - it may take awhile, like the unbelieving generation having to die off in the wilderness, but it will happen.
That does not make sense. You mean if I accept that aionas means "eternal" then I have the paradox of an unending age. The very term "unending age" is a contradiction in terms. Do you know what that means?
I said if you Deny that aionas means 'eternal' then you have a paradox. It's right there in print. Go back and read it again.
Quote:
This is what it actually says:
Luk 1:33 "His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And OF His kingdomthere shall be no consummation."
It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."
This confirms what Daniel said:
Dan 7:14 to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."
So "consummation" means "not be confined" to just one place like Israel.
Again, wrong version. Bad version. Here is a version more in line with the Greek:
Heb 1:8 Yet to the Son: "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eon, And a scepter of rectitude is the scepter of Thy kingdom."
Rev 22:1 And he shows me a river of water of life, resplendent as crystal, issuing out of the throne of God and the Lambkin."
Notice it differentiates between "God" and between "the Lambkin." Also, do you really believe Jesus is going to be morphed into a literal young Lambkin?
Also, if I go to a football game and tell a person that my dad and I purchased a seat in a booth and I tell that person they must get up because this is "my dad's and my seat" would you think I and my dad are one and the same being?
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more any doom, and the throne of God and of the Lambkin shall be in it. And His slaves shall be offering divine service to Him."
Rev 22:4 And they shall be seeing His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads."
Rev 22:5 And night shall be no more, and they have no need of lamplight and sunlight, for the Lord God shall be illuminating them. And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons."
They shall be reigning for the eons of the eons (i.e., the final two eons). If they reign eternally over humanity, this shows there will be insubjection in God's universe for eternity. The very fact that Christ will quit reigning proves that all insubjection is done away. Christ will have ruled so perfectly that He will rule out all rule and subject Himself to God. Then God will be All in all.
Dear Mike,
That's the demonic pagan version. The bible knows of no such demonic perverse concept of "triune God." The Pauline Bible version is much better:
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 states:
1Co 15:24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."
1Co 15:25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
1Co 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."
1Co 15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"
I gave you the Greek. I also included a link that supplied several different translations.
And again, comsummate means to complete, or to end. His reign shall not be consummated, or shall not end.
I further have given the passages that state that Christ is going to rule forever.
The split of Church Fathers beliefs may well be true. But Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter. It was Peter alone that was given the power to bind and loose, and with the power and help of the Holy Spirit, to run His Church. Peter was based in Rome and Bishop of Rome and therefore it is Rome that determines what is orthodox and what is not. Jesus said that that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church and so if you are truly a follower of Jesus, you must believe that Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit protects his Church from falsehood. And so, if you are a true follower of Christ, will go to the Church that He Himself created. Anything else is a man, a bible, and an opinion.
So folks, come home to the Catholic Church, the pillar and foundation of truth.
I said if you Deny that aionas means 'eternal' then you have a paradox. It's right there in print. Go back and read it again.
This is your actual quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Quote:
That's my point. If you deny that aionas, means eternal, than in view of the last half of the verse, you have the paradox of an unending age.
That does not make sense. The last half of the verse says nothing about an unending age. You made that up out of thin air.
Here is the full verse with context:
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."
How does the kingdom equate to an age or eon? It doesn't. He hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15). At that juncture it is no longer Christ's kingdom; the kingdom given to him by his God in Luke 1:32.
Christ does not give the kingdom to himself. That's retarded.
Quote:
Mike wrote:
I gave you the Greek. I also included a link that supplied several different translations.
And again, comsummate means to complete, or to end. His reign shall not be consummated, or shall not end.
"no consummation" means it shall not be confined to Israel. It will have no end to its reach on the inhabited earth:
Dan 7:14 to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."
[quote]I further have given the passages that state that Christ is going to rule forever.
You have some very serious denial issues.[/quote]
You have some serious color and bold problems.
I deny your improper translations, that what I deny.
He can't reign forever because that would just be for one eon or "for an ever." If He reigns for two eons then He would reign for evers.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."