The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation (women, after life)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
John 8 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come...........I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
See this is the problem with drawing conclusions about the everlasting fate of the pharisees (if that is what you are implying) from a phrase like "whither I go ye cannot come..."
Jesus said the same thing to His diciples:
John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
No one can go whither Christ went without being born again.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 11-17-2009 at 06:40 PM..
See this is the problem with drawing conclusions about the everlasting fate of the pharisees (if that is what you are implying) from a phrase like "whither I go ye cannot come..."
Jesus said the same thing to His diciples:
John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
No one can go whither Christ went without being born again.
See this is the problem with drawing conclusions about the everlasting fate of the pharisees (if that is what you are implying) from a phrase like "whither I go ye cannot come..."
Jesus said the same thing to His diciples:
John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
No one can go whither Christ went without being born again.
Jesus also said "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ ransomed all" (1 Tim.2:4-6) and "God is the Saviour of all mankind, specially them that believe. These things command and teach" (1 Tim.4:10,11) to the apostle Paul to tell us.
So, the Pharisee could not go up into the heavens where Christ went after His death. They would die in their sins. Christ did not say: "If you believe not that I am [he], ye shall die and go to hell for eternity."
Do you have anything other than 1 Timothy to prove your point?
It is really getting old...EXGETE!
The purpose of starting this thread was to show that contrary to the claims of the universalists, eternal condemnation was not a teaching that originated hundreds of years after the beginning of the church, but rather was taught from the very beginning of the church. This has been done. What I will now show is that it is universalism that began later.
First however, I will make it clear that the apostolic church leaders (I won't call them fathers anymore, as it implies Catholicism, which although it contains many heresies of its own, is nevertheless correct about the Biblical teaching of 'hell'), taught the Biblical truth concerning the eternal disposition of the lost in the lake of fire. The apostolic church leaders are those who were contemporaries of the Apostles. They lived in the same time frame as the Apostles and were at least in some cases, disciples of the Apostles.
For instance, Polycarp (roughly 69-155 A.D) was a disciple of the Apostle John. The same John who wrote in John 3:18. ''He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'' And also John 3:36. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' This truth did not originate from the mind of John, but was communicated to him by the Holy Spirit. The absolute truth concerning the fact that the unbeliever goes into the eternal lake of fire, was communicated to John, and to the other Apostles, directly by God the Holy Spirit. Polycarp taught the same thing. Other church leaders that were contemporaries with the Apostles were Barnabas (1st. century); Clement of Rome (97?-140 A.D.); Papias (80-155 A.D.); Ignatius (35-116? A.D.). None of these church leaders deviated from the Biblical teaching of eternal condemnation.
Irenaeus (130-200 A.D.) was a disciple of Polycarp and also adhered to the teachings of the Apostles. Heresies were making inroads into Christianity and Irenaeus accused the heretics of corrupting the Scriptures. His major work was 'Against Heretics' (c.185).
One of the heresies that was flourishing in this time frame was Gnosticism. This was a philosophical system built on Greek philosophy. Universalism has some roots in this philosophy.
It was in the 3rd century, that Origen, who was a student of Clement of Alexandria, began to write clearly about universalism and began promoting it. Origen was heavily influenced in his beliefs by the Greek philosophy of Platonism. The final unity of all things with God is a concept that belongs to Platonism. Origen tried to bring this concept over into Christianity. But this is a completely unscriptural concept. In 543 A.D. universalism was condemned by a counsel at Constantinople. The heresy of universalism was discredited, and the correct Biblical teaching concerning the eternal torment of the lake of fire prevailed for centuries.
But Satanic attempts to distort the Word of God are ceaseless, and universalism has resurfaced and has gained many followers. This is in accordance with what is taught in 1 Timothy 4:1 ''But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.''
Universalists ignore the numerous Scriptural passages that declare the need to believe in Christ in order to be saved, and they base their erroneous beliefs on a misunderstanding of passages such as Acts 3:21; Rom. 5:18-19; Eph. 1:9-10; 1 Cor. 15:22, and others.
Universalism makes an appeal to the emotion and to the attribute of God's love, while ignoring the Justice of God, and superimposing human notions of justice on God.
The entire Bible speaks of the need to believe in Christ for salvation. And as Second Clement 8:4,5 says, ''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance. After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confession or repenting will belong to us.''
As it says in Hebrews 9:27 ''And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.''
Not true... as I just wrote one post ago... "No one can go whither Christ went without being born again"
What part of your statement is in disagreement with Mike, or anyone else for that matter...being born again involves this life Kingdom Come...not another.
We agree with you, but it appears that you don't agree with yourself.
You aren't helping your case one bit...release yourself from this error!
What part of your statement is in disagreement with Mike, or anyone else for that matter...being born again involves this life Kingdom Come...not another.
We agree with you, but it appears that you don't agree with yourself.
You aren't helping your case one bit...release yourself from this error!
It should be obvious how Mikes words are false. Mike wrote that Universalists ignore the need to believe in Christ while I just stated that one must be born again to be saved, which requires belief in Christ.
Now concerning Justin Martyr, very little need be said, as it is acknowledged that he was no scholar(though he thought himself to be one) in anything, and his lack of logic and his abundance of self contradictions stand out all to apparent when one studies his apologies and philosophy closely. However there is somethings that are of interest to those who are curious about his influences. Before he ever converted to Christianity, he had sought to be initiated into the mysteries of Pythagoras, but was refused for his lack of education in anything, but most notably all forms of math, music, and the likes ... Also he was not a learned man in any language, not even the Hebrew and Greek. It should also be noted that he defended heathen philosophers from the torments of Hell if they had pre-existed Christ, most notably Socrates. As he himself was very much an Hellenistic thinker/philosopher much bemused by the teachings and philosophies of the Greeks.
Also it must be noted again that Justin martyr, though contradicting himself as he usually did, did not believe in eternal torment, but in limited torments and then annihilation. The language he used obviously in contradiction with itself in multiple places ... The man was obviously confused in regard many things.
So which is it? Are wicked and unbelieving men to be punished with everlasting punishment? Or will they suffer limited punishment then be annihilated?
This man Justin, though apparently a true believe in Christ and loyal to his faith, was not a great example of Christian Scholarship or of scholarship of any kind but perhaps of some amalgamation of histories concerning the Philosophies of the Greeks. He was also obviously not a great exegetical mind, in that he often Contradicted himself in his understanding of Christian doctrines, many times in the very same writings.
To see 15 quotations from Justin Martyr, as well as from others go to this link. I didn't feel like typing them all out myself.
''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.'' (First Apology of Justin, Chap. V111)
I see that the universalists feel it necessary to defend their false teaching, by attempting to discredit the early church leaders who wrote about eternal condemnation.
It should be obvious how Mikes words are false. Mike wrote that Universalists ignore the need to believe in Christ while I just stated that one must be born again to be saved, which requires belief in Christ.
I believe what Mike was referring to was those that believe He is not God.
But then again, I may be wrong about what he meant.......
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-17-2009 at 07:45 PM..
Reason: spelling again.....:(
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
