The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation (Holy Spirit, Jesus)
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Eternal torment.....another misnomer. This is better termed, eternal separation. There is one judgement, and the consequences thereof of that singular judgement results in eternal separation, which in turns is tormenting to the soul, because the lack thereof God.
Ironmaw, I understand your need to believe in this false claim, but it just isn't scriptural. What interests me more is this claim based on "brimstone", the purification of the soul...that brings forth the recognition of who really is Lord and God....Jesus Christ...the Savior. There is purification alright, that is for sure, but there is one judgement, and what is eternal, after that purification into the revelation of who is God, is that that soul, is eternally separated from Him. At first glance, the soul, the unbeliever, denounces Jesus Christ, and upon his death, he is purified, but he is not made white, because he did not recognize the blood of the Lamb in his life, but he is damned, upon realization of his error, and is separated from God...forever.
I understand your ego needs to believe in eternal torment. But that is the false claim friend. I am confident my God is both willing and able to save all men, and i am certain he will do it. I know the idea of God eventually saving all creation hurts you works worthy idea of the Gospel and of your seeming blood lust for your enemies and those that do not agree with you, but God has no blood lust, that's a human heart diseases, Gods good pleasure and glory is be the savior of all and having a complete victory over sin and death. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but in their turning again to him in repentance, and that is what his judgments are designed for. I trust the spirit how the spirit has dealt with me in my heart through my conscience, and as well through the true translation and interpretations of Scripture. God will be all in all, not all in some with the vast majority of his creation being separate from him. I know how you guys love to make striking contradictory statements about how god can bot be separate from most of his creation and still all in all, but you are the only ones fooled by your false contradictory logic.
The power of the blood of the lamb is not confined or subject to the power of death, on the contrary it is the power of death that is confined and subject to the power of the blood of the lamb. That is to say that death does not stop the power of the blood of the lamb, but the blood of the lamb stops the power of death.
2Sa 14:14
For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banishedbenotexpelled from him.
Lam 3:31-32
For the LORD will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Isa 57:16-19
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Cr 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all
Amen and Selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-18-2009 at 03:27 PM..
The Roman Catholic church is false. The Pope has no authority from God over anything. Most of the Catholic churches beliefs are contrary to what the Bible teaches.
Yet you quote their(Roman Catholics) earliest pontiffs as if they were the apostles themselves when they talk about eternal torment ... You and you doctrine and your evidences are so very contrary. Fundamentalist Christianity, the contrary religion.
I understand your ego needs to believe in eternal torment. But that is the false claim friend. I am confident my God is both willing and able to save all men, and i am certain he will do it. I know the idea of God eventually saving all creation hurts you works worthy idea of the Gospel and of your seeming blood lust for your enemies and those that do not agree with you, but God has no blood lust, that's a human heart diseases, Gods good pleasure and glory is be the savior of all and having a complete victory over sin and death. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but in their turning again to him in repentance, and that is what his judgments are designed for. I trust the spirit how the spirit has dealt with me in my heart through my conscience, and as well through the true translation and interpretations of Scripture. God will be all in all, not all in some with the vast majority of his creation being separate from him. I know how you guys love to make striking contradictory statements about how god can bot be separate from most of his creation and still all in all, but you are the only ones fooled by your false contradictory logic.
The power of the blood of the lamb is not confined or subject to the power of death, on the contrary it is the power of death that is confined and subject to the power of the blood of the lamb. That is to say that death does not stop the power of the blood of the lamb, but the blood of the lamb stops the power of death.
2Sa 14:14
For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Lam 3:31-32
For the LORD will not cast off for ever:But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Isa 57:16-19
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Psa 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Cr 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all
Amen and Selah ...
All these things were realized and consummated..God is all in all now
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Those in Christ are in complete communion with God. The scriptures you have posted all refer to this event and this event only of Revelation 21.
No ego here, just plenty of years studying the word of God....and the realization that everything, including the salvation of mankind, have already been accomplished. You either accept Christ in this life, or you will suffer the second death, which is irreversible. That is what the scripture says.
That is what it means.
As a Preterist, I have no hurdles to jump over, and no reasons to apply scriptural gymnastics to the word of God. All things are realized, and all things have been said and done.
Yet you quote their(Roman Catholics) earliest pontiffs as if they were the apostles themselves when they talk about eternal torment ... You and you doctrine and your evidences are so very contrary. Fundamentalist Christianity, the contrary religion.
The issue is that the lie has been put to your claims that the first century church didn't teach eternal condemnation. The first century church taught it, the Apostles taught it, and during His ministry on earth, Christ taught it.
All these things were realized and consummated..God is all in all now
So you are saying That God is in all sinners and unbelievers? Yet he will separate them from himself for ever? That means he will separate himself from himself. More contrary false logic.
Quote:
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Most people don't believe in the Christian God, so you only prove your contrary hermeneutics.
Quote:
Those in Christ are in complete communion with God. The scriptures you have posted all refer to this event and this event only of Revelation 21.
No ego here, just plenty of years studying the word of God....and the realization that everything, including the salvation of mankind, have already been accomplished. You either accept Christ in this life, or you will suffer the second death, which is irreversible. That is what the scripture says.
Whatever ... I know what your about. You made it evident the first time you argued against Universal reconciliation. And you make it all the more evident the more your write. As i see it, you believe that the complete victory of Christ over sin and death which works to the eventual salvation of all creation makes your own faith in Christ and service to God impotent and valueless. You believe that your salvation is of value if only you and people who believe in your religion are saved. That in my opinion makes you spiritually greedy. You would rather everyone who doesn't believe in your religion before they die be damned for ever. That is where your heart is, not where Gods heart is.
Quote:
That is what it means.
That is what your hardened heart believes it means.
Quote:
As a Preterist, I have no hurdles to jump over, and no reasons to apply scriptural gymnastics to the word of God. All things are realized, and all things have been said and done.
As a full preterist, in my opinion, you are in contradiction to scripture in most of what you believe concerning the prophecies. The bible says sin and death will be destroyed, you say they have been when everyone is still sinning and dying. I believe you are illogical and that your beliefs are in many ways inane. I am sure you fill the same way about me. That is fine. I do love you, but i don't like the way you see the world. I think it is hypocritical and contrary to reason and logic and the word of God. So be it ...
Whatever you believe, i pray God be with you and open your heart to greater acceptance of his love for everyone and the truth of his real good news for ALL humanity.
The issue is that the lie has been put to your claims that the first century church didn't teach eternal condemnation. The first century church taught it, the Apostles taught it, and during His ministry on earth, Christ taught it.
I don't believe He did - I interpret the burning of flesh as a spiritual process to purify the man. So did Paul, I believe.
I don't believe He did - I interpret the burning of flesh as a spiritual process to purify the man. So did Paul, I believe.
I believe, I believe, I believe. Free country.
If your beliefs are contrary to what the Word of God teaches, then of what use to you are those beliefs? The Bible will not change to accommodate your beliefs. If you care about truth, then it is you who must orient to the truth, for truth will not reorient itself to agree with you. If you choose to remain outside of the truth, then you side with Satan, for as it says in John 8:44 ''...He...does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.''
Paul stated in 2 Thess.1:9 ''And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
It is emcumbent upon you to understand that aionion means eternal. If you choose not to, then that is your choice. If, and I stress 'IF' the truth matters to you, then give these word studies concerning the meanng of 'aionion' some consideration. If it doesn't matter to you, then don't bother.
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You and you doctrine and your evidences are so very contrary. Fundamentalist Christianity, the contrary religion.