The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation (traditions, Antichrist)

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by juj

The split of Church Fathers beliefs may well be true. But Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter. It was Peter alone that was given the power to bind and loose, and with the power and help of the Holy Spirit, to run His Church. Peter was based in Rome and Bishop of Rome and therefore it is Rome that determines what is orthodox and what is not. Jesus said that that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church and so if you are truly a follower of Jesus, you must believe that Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit protects his Church from falsehood. And so, if you are a true follower of Christ, will go to the Church that He Himself created. Anything else is a man, a bible, and an opinion.

So folks, come home to the Catholic Church, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Hardy Har Har hardly.
I think you better read Galatians 2 where Peter, James and John and Paul agreed that Peter, James and John would be for the Circumcision and Paul would be for the nations.

So, since the Catholic church goes back to Peter and not Paul, they should leave us alone and just stick with the Circumcision Jews.

[juj]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Hardy Har Har hardly.
I think you better read Galatians 2 where Peter, James and John and Paul agreed that Peter, James and John would be for the Circumcision and Paul would be for the nations.

So, since the Catholic church goes back to Peter and not Paul, they should leave us alone and just stick with the Circumcision Jews.

Matthew 16 doesn't exist for anti-Catholics. It's passages like that get continously ignored so that Protestantism can stand up up on it's shaky legs.

Of course the other Apostles helped with decisions. Of course Paul, was very influential. But Peter was the head of His Church, like it or not. The Christian world knew that to be true for 1500 years and for the last 500 have forcefully forgotten it.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

[Thomas R.]

The Early Church Fathers were not monolithic. Tertulian and Origen ultimately became heretics even by the standards of their age.

Although it's a bit odd reading a strong anti-Catholic quote Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, and Irinaeus with approval.

Ignatius of Antioch stated

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again."

"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus is, there is the catholic church."

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr First Apology

"But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy [king] of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another." Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho (the start of explaining why the Jews, and by implication the later Protestants, were wrong to reject the Septuagint)

Unlike some of the others I'm not necessarily trying to evangelize you with those statements. I just don't see how one can take the Early Church Fathers seriously and be a Protestant. (Maybe an Anglo-Catholic Anglican) This doesn't automatically mean Catholicism is the only way to take them serious. Various Eastern Orthodox faiths could work as well. However I don't get how they work with Protestant thinking.

[Thomas R.]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Hardy Har Har hardly.
I think you better read Galatians 2 where Peter, James and John and Paul agreed that Peter, James and John would be for the Circumcision and Paul would be for the nations.

So, since the Catholic church goes back to Peter and not Paul, they should leave us alone and just stick with the Circumcision Jews.

You almost seem disdainful of them, but isn't the Epistle of James and the two Epistles of Peter in Protestant Bibles? They are apostolic figures in your denominations as well.

Also Galatians just seems to refer to Peter working with the Jews and Paul's mission being to the Gentiles. Or that's how I read it at this hour, I'm not a morning person.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by juj

Matthew 16 doesn't exist for anti-Catholics. It's passages like that get continously ignored so that Protestantism can stand up up on it's shaky legs.

Of course the other Apostles helped with decisions. Of course Paul, was very influential. But Peter was the head of His Church, like it or not. The Christian world knew that to be true for 1500 years and for the last 500 have forcefully forgotten it.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

I am not "anti-Catholic." The Catholic Church is a church among many. It is not THE church.

If any church is THE church it would be the Circumcision church headed by Peter IN Jerusalem. But even then, Paul was not in submission to Peter.

If any church is THE church it would also be the Uncircumcision church headed by Paul among the nations.

Until Constantine the Roman church was not ruling the other churches. And when the church in Rome first tried to exercise authority over other churches they were laughed at by the bishops of those churches.

Please read Galatians 2 and read the agreement, also James in Acts
Act 15:19, agreed upon by Peter and those present stated: "Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God,"

So the Catholic Church needs to quit harassing us as if we have to belong to them.

Also, in Matthew 16:18 the rock was the belief Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ. Bishop Kendrick of the Catholic Church proved that the majority of Catholic fathers held to the above understanding of Matthew 16:18 and not that Peter was the rock.

Peace to you too, brother!

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

You almost seem disdainful of them, but isn't the Epistle of James and the two Epistles of Peter in Protestant Bibles? They are apostolic figures in your denominations as well.

No, not disdainful of Peter, James and John. I just know they were for the Circumcision. Read the address to whom they wrote in their epistles. Their audience was not the nations but the Circumcision Jewish believers whereas Paul addressed the nations. He is the apostle of the nations. This title is equivalent to "The Pope of the nations."

Also Galatians just seems to refer to Peter working with the Jews and Paul's mission being to the Gentiles. Or that's how I read it at this hour, I'm not a morning person.

Here is Galatians:
"Now from those reputed to be somewhat-what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)-for to me those of repute submitted nothing. But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-" only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do." Now when Cephas came to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, for he was self-censured." For, before the coming of some from James, he ate together with those of the nations. Yet when they came, he shrank back, and severed himself, fearing those of the Circumcision." And the rest of the Jews also play the hypocrite with him, so that Barnabas also was led away with their hypocrisy." But when I perceived that they are not correct in their attitude toward the truth of the evangel, I said to Cephas in front of all, "If you, being inherently a Jew, are living as the nations, and not as the Jews, how are you compelling the nations to be judaizing?
(Galatians 2:6-14 CLV)

Notice Peter was compelling the nations to be judaizing. Do you realize what that means?

James wrote to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Peter wrote to: "to the chosen expatriates of the dispersion."
John of Revelation wrote to Jews.
Paul, the apostle of the nations wrote to the nations.

[Michael Way]

[quote=Eusebius;11690198][/color]

This is your actual quote:
[/i]

That does not make sense. The last half of the verse says nothing about an unending age. You made that up out of thin air.

Here is the full verse with context:
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

How does the kingdom equate to an age or eon? It doesn't. He hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15). At that juncture it is no longer Christ's kingdom; the kingdom given to him by his God in Luke 1:32.
Christ does not give the kingdom to himself. That's retarded.


[/color]

"no consummation" means it shall not be confined to Israel. It will have no end to its reach on the inhabited earth:

Dan 7:14 to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."

I further have given the passages that state that Christ is going to rule forever.

You have some very serious denial issues.[/quote]

You have some serious color and bold problems.

I deny your improper translations, that what I deny.
He can't reign forever because that would just be for one eon or "for an ever." If He reigns for two eons then He would reign for evers.

Here are my exact words from Post #122 concerning Luke 1:33. ''In view of the last half of the verse, a continued denial that aionas in this verse means eternal leads to a paradox of an unendng age, which would still have the meaning of eternity.''

Apparently, the complexity of the sentence is beyond your cognitive abilities.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

You almost seem disdainful of them, but isn't the Epistle of James and the two Epistles of Peter in Protestant Bibles? They are apostolic figures in your denominations as well.

Also Galatians just seems to refer to Peter working with the Jews and Paul's mission being to the Gentiles. Or that's how I read it at this hour, I'm not a morning person.

[quote=Mike555;11691109]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

[/color]

This is your actual quote:
[/i]

That does not make sense. The last half of the verse says nothing about an unending age. You made that up out of thin air.

Here is the full verse with context:
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

How does the kingdom equate to an age or eon? It doesn't. He hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15). At that juncture it is no longer Christ's kingdom; the kingdom given to him by his God in Luke 1:32.
Christ does not give the kingdom to himself. That's retarded.


[/color]

"no consummation" means it shall not be confined to Israel. It will have no end to its reach on the inhabited earth:

Dan 7:14 to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined."



[color=black]Here are my exact words from Post #122 concerning Luke 1:33. ''In view of the last half of the verse, a continued denial that aionas in this verse means eternal leads to a paradox of an unendng age, which would still have the meaning of eternity.''

Apparently, the complexity of the sentence is beyond your cognitive abilities.

How does denying aionas means eternal lead to a paradox of an unending age?
In the first place, aionas would be AGES (plural) not AGE (singular). So you'd have to have "unending AGES" which is even more absurd because for there to be a plurality of ages, one must end for another to begin, so they cannot be endless.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

You like Eusebius, sure have a way of twisting other people's words to say what you want them to say, a common trait amonst the UR crowd I see. He is all in all who believe...get it right Ironmaw..

Talk about disingenuous exegesis ... Let us look at the chapter ...

1 Cor 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now, What things are going to be subjected unto Christ? Only believers? Or everything in the universe? Herre we see the answer, all rule, and all authority and all power, and all his enemies. Now, there are many nations on the earth today that are not Christian nations subject to Christ. And their are many peoples on earth who are yet enemies of Christ. But, all nations will be subject to him and will worship him ... As we see in ...

Psa 22:27
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

and again ...

Psa 86:9
All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

and yet again ...

Rev 15:4
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

So when all powers and rulers and authorities are finally subjected to Christ, they shall turn unto him and worship him for his judgments will be made manifest in the earth. Again as it is written ...

Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


Se we see, that the all who will be subjected to Christ is every nation and every kindred of every nation and all the power and ruler and authorities in the nations and all Christs enemies will be subjected to him and will turn unto him and worship him and confess Christ as their lord to the glory of the fathers name. As it is written ...

Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So the very same all in the verse just above 1 Cor 15:28 is the same all whom he will be in. He will be In all mankind. And whats more in all authority and power and within all who were once his enemies, including the greatest enemy of all and his fallen angels. None of this is yet manifest. though one day it will be when the end is come.

Now let us look at the word "subdued" ... It is the file:///C:/Users/Ironmaw/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png (broken link)Greek word "hypotassō" ... It means to make subject, to be in line under and to obey. The word is used in regard how Christians are subjects of Christ. As seen in ...

Eph 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.


So we see that all Christs enemies of every nation on the earth who have every lived will turn unto Christ and confess him as their lord and worship him and glorify the name of the father, and they will be his people, subjects of his kingdom. And here is the promise of God to all those who turn to him ...

2Ch 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

And again ...

Isa 57:16-19
or I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.


This is what it means when it is said that God will be all in all, believe it or not ...

That is precisely why there is a covenant...between God and man, mediated through Jesus Christ...God in the flesh.
Accept Him as Savior, and you have God dwelling with you...don't and you die...eternally. That is the message. Deal with it.

I have dealt with it ...All will accept Christ as their savior, if not in this life then after the resurrection. They shall confess him as lord and worship before him and sing his name in joy to the glory of the father and thus they will be saved. As it is written ...

Act 2:21
and it shall be, every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.

What part of the kingdom don't you understand Ironmaw?...it is neither here nor there.....where you can see...with your eye...it is in the CHURCH!...In the Hearts of Mankind that BELIEVE!....good grief...what part of scripture do you people have a hard time of understanding?...no more sin and death....that means...when you believe in Christ...those two things are defeated.....but you will never understand that seeking a fleshly kingdom....never. Isa 25:8 meets Rev 21:3 DEAL WITH IT.

Again, you spiritualize the resurrection, the return of Christ, the millennial reign, the subjection of all nations ... But the lake of fire you interpret as being literal ...

That is truly funny. Of all the things that are to be understood symbolically or figuratively, you take as literal, and of all the things that should be understood as literal, you understand as symbolic or figurative. You dont have the faith to believe that God will really and truly and literally abolish death in this world, and you dont have the faith to believe in the literal resurrection of the body in this world, and you dont have the faith to believe in the literal return of Christ to this world, but yet you can believe in a giant lake of fire somewhere full of brimstone that is large enough to fit more than 80 billion people in, plus a third of the host of heaven, plus this literal underworld of Hades(again something you believe to be a literal place where the dead went) and death to boot.

Then though you say that the lake of fire is not symbolic but literal, you out of the other side of your mouth say that God is not tormenting the souls of the unbelievers whom are in the lake of fire but they he separates them from himself for ever and thus they are tormented. So which is it, are they merely separated from him or are they in a literal lake of fire for ever burning in torment wherein they were cast by God? Get your facts straight man ... And realize that you are in fact wrong.

That prayer was answered a long time ago.
It's time to pray that for yourself.

Why don't you pray for me as i pray for you? If we truly pray for one another , and that god reveal the truth of these things to us especially if we are wrong, just maybe one of us will change our perspective. Never the less, i will continue to pray for you and ask God to continue revealing the truth to me, and where i may be in error.

Amen and Selah ..

[sciotamicks]

Whatever translation you want to use is irrelevant....the Holy Spirit graces us that believe that Christ is Deity, and through that relevation, the revealing of the Holy Word follows. I have seen many arguements regarding the various translations and their errors, but it grows from one source, and that is Jesus, and the faith in Him as God. I prefer the NKJV, however, to get a full scope of the word, it is pertinent to read others...the NIV is good as well, as all of them for that matter.

Denying the truth in the word is dangerous.