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I just started a new thread to discuss this since it isn't really relevant to this thread. The new thread is called "Justification and Sanctification."
I think the problem with Olsten is that he teaches that God will make great things for you if your saved and it leads many to think nothing bad will ever happen to him. It's like he removes the story from job in the Bible. Olstein does not seem to teach much on sin and thus many dont have a concept of it. To me he leaves it to the definition of whomever feels like its sin. The Bible is the authority on sin and if it says its sin it is in fact sin. While the prayer could be valid if it is used in the context of understanding true sin, if not used this way it can be worthless..
Agreed. It's a bad job to lead people to Christ with the fallacy that our lives, our physical and material lives, will be a Utopia. In this world we will have tribulaltion - of all sorts. The difference with true believes is that we have God's spirit to lift us up. JO is perpetuating a huge misconception and therefore instituting a huge misservice to Christianity.
Paul chastened the church at Galatia: "I am astonished . . . you . . . are turning to a DIFFERENT GOSPEL - - - which is really NO GOSPEL at all" (Gal.1:7). The words "no gospel at all" are a translation of the Greek word "allos" which means "something else", "something alien", "something altered", "something adulterated" or, my favourite, "ANYTHING BUT". False gospel is ANYTHING BUT GOOD NEWS ! ! ! In fact, FALSE GOSPEL ALWAYS PUTS US BACK UNDER THE LAW. Paul testified to the Gospel he preached as follows: "I want you to know, brothers, that the Gospel I preached is NOT SOMETHING MAN MADE UP. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather I RECEIVED IT BY REVELATION FROM JESUS CHRIST" (Gal.1:11-12). Remember what he wrote the church at Corinth: "BY THIS GOSPEL YOU ARE SAVED, IF you HOLD FIRMLY to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain" (1Cor.15:2). I do not like the translation here. The words "hold firmly" is from the Greek "katecho" which really means "have with you". The "word" that was preached was JESUS, who IS the WORD. A much better understanding can be had if we translate: "BY THIS GOSPEL YOU ARE SAVED, IF YOU HAVE JESUS WITH YOU. Otherwise you have believed in vain".
To find the truth in this matter, visit: Prayer partners - Heading for one million to pray for World nations.
Last edited by netmark2005; 04-04-2010 at 09:52 PM..
Reason: trying to insert link
Paul chastened the church at Galatia: "I am astonished . . . you . . . are turning to a DIFFERENT GOSPEL - - - which is really NO GOSPEL at all" (Gal.1:7). The words "no gospel at all" are a translation of the Greek word "allos" which means "something else", "something alien", "something altered", "something adulterated" or, my favourite, "ANYTHING BUT". False gospel is ANYTHING BUT GOOD NEWS ! ! ! In fact, I might as well reveal it here, FALSE GOSPEL ALWAYS PUTS US BACK UNDER THE LAW. Where does that lead? ? ? Paul testified to the Gospel he preached as follows: "I want you to know, brothers, that the Gospel I preached is NOT SOMETHING MAN MADE UP. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather I RECEIVED IT BY REVELATION FROM JESUS CHRIST" (Gal.1:11-12). Remember what he wrote the church at Corinth: "By this Gospel you are saved, IF you HOLD FIRMLY to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain" (1Cor.15:2). I do not like the translation here. The words "hold firmly" is from the Greek "katecho" which really means "have with you". The "word" that was preached was JESUS, who IS the WORD. A much better understanding can be had if we translate: "BY THIS GOSPEL YOU ARE SAVED, IF YOU HAVE JESUS WITH YOU. Otherwise you have believed in vain".
FYI. Highlight the whole text you added, click the the Xed out A on the top left of the editor box to remove all the formating.
Because all the work of salvation was accomplished by Christ on the Cross, salvation is as simple as Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.' There is no work on our part involved in salvation. We do not have to feel sorry for our sins. We do not have to promise never to sin again. Repenting does not mean feeling sorry for sin. To repent means to change your mind about Christ. You didn't believe in Christ and then you heard the Gospel, and understanding the issue, you believed in Christ. You repented. The word for repent as used for salvation is METANOIA-to change your mind. The other Greek word for repent, METAMELOMAI-to feel sorry, is never used for salvation.
Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Baptism is a public declaration of someone who has already believed in Christ for salvation.
People who maintain that you must feel sorry for your sins, or be baptized, or do any kind of works, including giving up anything or depending on something that THEY do for salvation do not understand the issue. The issue is placing your trust ENTIRELY in Christ for salvation.
If you think you must do anything other than what the Bible says over and over again, which is simply believe in Christ, then you do not understand the issue involved in salvation and you are not saved. You either trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or you are trusting in something that you do for salvation. Hades is full of people who trusted in something THEY did for salvation.
Salvation is this simple. Once you have heard the Gospel and understand the issue, and you want to have a relationship with Christ forever, then in the privacy of your own soul simply form the thought something like this. ''Father, I am believing in Christ for salvation.'' In that moment of time you are saved forever. You can never lose your salvation.
People who call that easy believism, or say that it is a license to sin, again do not understand the issue involved. The believer after salvation is commanded to grow up spiritually. (2 Peter 3:18). God does discipline the disobedient believer. (Hebrews 12:5-13).
You do not work for or earn your salvation, and you do not do anything to maintain your salvation. One simple non meritorious act of faith (trust) in Christ and you are saved forever. If you try to work up some kind of sorrow for your sins as a condition for salvation, you have added your work to the work of Christ on the Cross and you are NOT saved.
Romans 11:6 ' But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
You said "All the work of salvation was accomplished by Christ on the Cross," and "You do not work for or earn your salvation, and you do not do anything to maintain your salvation."
However, you contradicted yourself by naming the following things you MUST do to be saved:
Believe
Change your mind about Christ
Understand
Place your trust ENTIRELY in Christ
Hear the gospel
Want to have a relationship with Christ
Trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross
Form the thought something like this
Act of faith
You called it simple, but mentioned a few things that mean people are not saved:
If you try to work up some kind of sorrow for your sins as a condition for salvation, you have added your work to the work of Christ on the Cross and you are NOT saved.
(BHFT: I've never known anyone to think you go to hell for feeling sorry for your sins. That's a new one!)
If you think you must do anything other than what the Bible says over and over again, which is simply believe in Christ, then you do not understand the issue involved in salvation and you are not saved.
You either trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or you are trusting in something that you do for salvation. Hades is full of people who trusted in something THEY did for salvation.
A person has to DO SOMETHING to believe, change his/her mind, understand, place trust, hear, want a relationship, trust, form a thought, and do an act of faith. These are all things PEOPLE DO!! Your own words prove that you do not believe in a finished work of Christ on the Cross. Not at all! Unfortunately, according to your own words, you should judge yourself not to be saved since you do think there's something other than believe that people have to do.
You said "All the work of salvation was accomplished by Christ on the Cross," and "You do not work for or earn your salvation, and you do not do anything to maintain your salvation."
However, you contradicted yourself by naming the following things you MUST do to be saved:
Believe
Change your mind about Christ
Understand
Place your trust ENTIRELY in Christ
Hear the gospel
Want to have a relationship with Christ
Trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross
Form the thought something like this
Act of faith
You called it simple, but mentioned a few things that mean people are not saved:
If you try to work up some kind of sorrow for your sins as a condition for salvation, you have added your work to the work of Christ on the Cross and you are NOT saved.
(BHFT: I've never known anyone to think you go to hell for feeling sorry for your sins. That's a new one!)
If you think you must do anything other than what the Bible says over and over again, which is simply believe in Christ, then you do not understand the issue involved in salvation and you are not saved.
You either trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or you are trusting in something that you do for salvation. Hades is full of people who trusted in something THEY did for salvation.
A person has to DO SOMETHING to believe, change his/her mind, understand, place trust, hear, want a relationship, trust, form a thought, and do an act of faith. These are all things PEOPLE DO!! Your own words prove that you do not believe in a finished work of Christ on the Cross. Not at all! Unfortunately, according to your own words, you should judge yourself not to be saved since you do think there's something other than believe that people have to do.
You could not be more wrong about Mike. You have twisted everything he said in his post.
You could not be more wrong about Mike. You have twisted everything he said in his post.
You have got to be kidding. I quoted his own post. He named stuff you have to do to be saved, and also said you don't have to do anything but believe. He even said people like YOU are NOT saved! Read what he said about people who think part of salvation is being sorry for your sins!
"If you try to work up some kind of sorrow for your sins as a condition for salvation, you have added your work to the work of Christ on the Cross and you are NOT saved."
You could not be more wrong about Mike. You have twisted everything he said in his post.
Actually, I think Bright Hope is right about this. If the flesh has a laundry list of things to do "in order to be saved", it will NEVER be saved. Or better yet, it ain't gonna happen...
Jesus said in Joh 6:63 that our flesh profits nothing for us. Further, our flesh will NEVER enter the kingdom of heaven (Joh 3:5). Our flesh is spiritually dead (Col 2:13) and will NEVER come to life. Consequently the flesh cannot perform anything spiritual or attain anything spiritual for us. It is the Holy Spirit ALONE that gives us life. Faith is a good fruit of the new life born of the Spirit. Only those born of the Spirit have faith (Joh 3:12).
You said "All the work of salvation was accomplished by Christ on the Cross," and "You do not work for or earn your salvation, and you do not do anything to maintain your salvation."
However, you contradicted yourself by naming the following things you MUST do to be saved:
Believe
Change your mind about Christ
Understand
Place your trust ENTIRELY in Christ
Hear the gospel
Want to have a relationship with Christ
Trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross
Form the thought something like this
Act of faith
You called it simple, but mentioned a few things that mean people are not saved:
If you try to work up some kind of sorrow for your sins as a condition for salvation, you have added your work to the work of Christ on the Cross and you are NOT saved.
(BHFT: I've never known anyone to think you go to hell for feeling sorry for your sins. That's a new one!)
If you think you must do anything other than what the Bible says over and over again, which is simply believe in Christ, then you do not understand the issue involved in salvation and you are not saved.
You either trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, or you are trusting in something that you do for salvation. Hades is full of people who trusted in something THEY did for salvation.
A person has to DO SOMETHING to believe, change his/her mind, understand, place trust, hear, want a relationship, trust, form a thought, and do an act of faith. These are all things PEOPLE DO!! Your own words prove that you do not believe in a finished work of Christ on the Cross. Not at all! Unfortunately, according to your own words, you should judge yourself not to be saved since you do think there's something other than believe that people have to do.
The finished work of Christ on the Cross is not applied to anyone until they believe in Christ. Eternal salvation is contengent upon faith in Christ. Faith is the means by which the finished work of Christ on the Cross is appropiated, thus resulting in salvation for the one believing.
Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, ''WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.'' 12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13) for ''WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'' 14) How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe n Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, ''HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS?'' 16) However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, ''LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?'' 17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Believing is an act of faith which is completely trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Before one can believe in and therefore change their mind about Christ (repent), one must hear the Gospel message about Christ and by means of the Holy Spirit's ministry of efficacious grace, understand the Gospel. Having heard and understood the Gospel, if that person wants to have a relationship with God, he will then place his trust in Christ for that salvation. In expressing his faith to God he will form a thought in his mind to that effect.
One does not go to hell for feeling sorry for their sins. One goes to hell because they do not place their trust in Christ for salvation. If a person thinks that they must work up a feeling of guilt for their sins in order to be saved, then they are not depending on Christ for their salvation, they are depending on their efforts, their works for salvation. That is legalism and is antithetical to grace.
Faith is not a work. The disciples had asked Christ what they must do to do the works of God. Jesus replied as follows...
John 6:28 They said therefore to Him, ''What shall we do, that we may do the works of God?'' Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.''
The disciples had mistakenly thought that they needed to do something to do the works (plural) of God. Jesus did a play on words and replied by telling them that the work (singular) of God was to believe in Him (Jesus).
In other words, faith is not a work. The Scriptures declare time after time that you must have faith in Christ, which means to believe in Him, in order to be saved.
Acts 16:30 and after he (the jailer) had brought them out, he said, ''Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'' And they (Paul and Silas) said, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:18 ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Gospel hearing--->Gospel understood--->results in repentence-change of mind about Christ for the one desiring relationship with Christ = eternal salvation.
Eternal salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Those who do not understand this are not saved.
Faith results in eternal salvation. Having attained eternal salvation, the believer should be motivated to grow up spiritually and have spiritual production in his life.
You could not be more wrong about Mike. You have twisted everything he said in his post.
Thanks ILNC. Those who reject the truth can never understand it.
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