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Again, repenting with regard to salvation has to do with a change of mind about Christ. Not about feeling sorry for your sins.
Please do a keyword search on biblegateway.com and put in repent/repenting....you may be surprised what you find. Sin should be adhorrent to us and if you think differently....you don't know God at all nor do you know His standards.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
I've addressed this a couple of times on other threads. In Matthew 19:16-22, the rich young ruler is under the mistaken impression that he must do something to earn his salvation. Just as you also are under that same mistaken impression. And so Christ answered the young rulers question. He explained to him the requirements of the law if he was to earn his salvation. Something that is impossible to do since we are all born spiritually dead as a result of being born with Adams original sin.
What God won't have is the Cheap Grace Gospel you are propounding and I suggest you read the parable again because you clearly don't understand it.
The Rich Young Ruler
16And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
This man stated that he kept the commandments....did he? No, because Jesus told him to do something that he already knew he would not do which was to part with his money. The ruler loved his money more than God...which is IDOLATRY!!! What is the number one commandement: Love God with all of your heart, soul and mind...the second....have no other Gods....this is something the ruler was definitely NOT doing was he? So...by Jesus illustration we can clearly see that although this ruler thought he was keeping the law (as the scribes and pharisees thought throughout the gospels) we find that he was actually breaking the law, which is unacceptable to God. Again....discipleship/being a Christ follower is costly and not as cheap and easy as so many suggest.
It's not that I reject the writings of Paul, I truly believe that he is misunderstood and that his writings are twisted by those who have preconceived notions of what he is saying. I do not, however, give Pauls words precedence over Jesus words....
Neither do I. There is no need to. Paul makes perfect sense and does not contradict Christ's words in any way. When Paul speaks of being justified by faith alone, he is not denying the need for personal righteousness and holiness--i.e., sanctification. He keeps the doctrines of justification and sanctification separate.
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I do not however believe in the Cheap Grace Gospel of faith alone....especially when Jesus taught something completely different, that discipleship was costly.
Once again you are confusing sanctification with justification. Discipleship is being a student of Christ, a follower of Him, and has to do with the living of the Christian life. It does not refer in any way to the means whereby God accepts the believer.
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There are those who teach you just have to have faith and nothing else....
The orthodox Christian teaching is that you have to have faith alone to be justified (declared righteous) because we can never achieve the perfect righteousness that God requires.
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There has to be some fruit in our lives....some evidence that we are changing (not only our minds but our behavior) and being conformed to the image of Christ....
Yes, there has to be. I agree. But for sanctification, not to be justified.
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One is not made into a New Creation by just saying some silly sinners prayer
I agree. One is made into a new creation by the free, merciful, sovereign act of God alone:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13, NASB)
I'm curious about something. If you believe that salvation is dependent upon our obedience to the law, then what need do you have of Christ at all? It would seem that you don't need a savior if you can achieve righteousness by keeping the law.
Please do a keyword search on biblegateway.com and put in repent/repenting....you may be surprised what you find. Sin should be adhorrent to us and if you think differently....you don't know God at all nor do you know His standards.
What God won't have is the Cheap Grace Gospel you are propounding and I suggest you read the parable again because you clearly don't understand it.
The Rich Young Ruler
16And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
This man stated that he kept the commandments....did he? No, because Jesus told him to do something that he already knew he would not do which was to part with his money. The ruler loved his money more than God...which is IDOLATRY!!! What is the number one commandement: Love God with all of your heart, soul and mind...the second....have no other Gods....this is something the ruler was definitely NOT doing was he? So...by Jesus illustration we can clearly see that although this ruler thought he was keeping the law (as the scribes and pharisees thought throughout the gospels) we find that he was actually breaking the law, which is unacceptable to God. Again....discipleship/being a Christ follower is costly and not as cheap and easy as so many suggest.
The issue in SALVATION is faith alone in Christ alone. Your spiritual life after salvation is another matter. You have ignored what I wrote about the fact that God disciplines the rebellious or disobedient believer. You also fail to distinquish between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification.
And as for telling other people what they do and do not understand, you who reject the deity of Christ, who deny His virgin birth, who have implyed that He may have sinned before He began His ministry, you who think that the Kingdom of God is within us, who deny the existence of Satan if I remember correctly, and I think there are other perversions of the scriptures that you hold to, you are in no position to tell other people what they do and do not understand. I will tell you this. You do not even know the one in whom you profess to believe. If you have never had the sense to believe in the deity of Christ, if you have never simply believed in Christ for salvation, then you aren't even saved. You will be one of the vast majority who will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
I'm curious about something. If you believe that salvation is dependent upon our obedience to the law, then what need do you have of Christ at all? It would seem that you don't need a savior if you can achieve righteousness by keeping the law.
No offense...but that's a pretty silly question. It is Christ's sacrifice that cleanses us from our sin, when we repent and turn from our sin. This is a continual process which requires our continued repentance for any sins we may commit in the future and our obedience to live the life God has called us to live. I'm just curious....what do so many find so objectional about Gods commands and that we should follow them?
Let me ask you a hypothetical question: Let's say you believe in Jesus, you have faith but you've never repented of your sins and you go on living your life, without changing at all. Do you believe you are saved by Christ without the need to repent of these sins and change your future behavior?
It is Christ's sacrifice that cleanses us from our sin, when we repent and turn from our sin. This is a continual process which requires our continued repentance for any sins we may commit in the future and our obedience to live the life God has called us to live.
So then, let me see if I understand your view, and please correct me if I have misunderstood you. You claim that:
we are not declared righteous at the moment we have faith, since you say that it is a continual process;
the cleansing of sin through the sacrifice of Christ will not take place unless and until we begin to live righteously (turn from sin and toward God).
Have I understood you correctly?
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I'm just curious....what do so many find so objectional about Gods commands and that we should follow them?
I for one don't find anything objectionable about them. What I object to is any false gospel that claims that believers must add something to Christ's perfect righteousness credited to them.
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Let me ask you a hypothetical question: Let's say you believe in Jesus, you have faith but you've never repented of your sins and you go on living your life, without changing at all. Do you believe you are saved by Christ without the need to repent of these sins and change your future behavior?
Your question is a poor one because it is based on an incorrect understanding of salvation. Genuine, saving faith always goes hand in hand with genuine repentance. It is impossible for someone to truly believe, to the saving of the soul, and yet not repent. The person who does not care enough about sin to repent of it will certainly not care about what Christ did on the cross.
So then, let me see if I understand your view, and please correct me if I have misunderstood you. You claim that:
we are not declared righteous at the moment we have faith, since you say that it is a continual process;
the cleansing of sin through the sacrifice of Christ will not take place unless and until we begin to live righteously (turn from sin and toward God).
Have I understood you correctly?
No you haven't. The cleansing of our past sins happens when we repent of our sins and turn to Christ to cleanse us...this is when we should begin to live righteously by denying ourselves, taking up our cross daily and following Jesus. In other words, our lives should be changing with the help of Christ. If I sin again during this process, do I not have to repent of that sin and be cleansed again? Yes...for every time I sin, I separate myself from God. This is the continual process that we must go through until we have completely crucified the flesh and sin no more.
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Originally Posted by Jremy
I for one don't find anything objectionable about them. What I object to is any false gospel that claims that believers must add something to Christ's perfect righteousness credited to them.
Why do you say that if one is obedient to Gods commands they are adding to what Jesus has done especially when Jesus specifically tells us to do this? If one is truly repentant and changes their lives (i.e. by living in the Spirit by the power of Christ and not their flesh, trusting Christ to continually cleanse one if they stumble) and lives obediently to Gods commands because we love God and want to please Him and because we are called to do this by Jesus....being holy and perfect as the Father is perfect....what are we adding in your estimation?
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Originally Posted by Jremy
Your question is a poor one because it is based on an incorrect understanding of salvation. Genuine, saving faith always goes hand in hand with genuine repentance. It is impossible for someone to truly believe, to the saving of the soul, and yet not repent. The person who does not care enough about sin to repent of it will certainly not care about what Christ did on the cross.
I agree with you 100% on this....but there are many who teach that this is not necessary.
Case in point:
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Originally Posted by Mike555
There is no work on our part involved in salvation. We do not have to feel sorry for our sins. We do not have to promise never to sin again. Repenting does not mean feeling sorry for sin.
This is a perfect example of the skewed thinking that is out there (The Cheap Grace Gospel) and one in which I disagree wholeheartedly.
No you haven't. The cleansing of our past sins happens when we repent of our sins and turn to Christ to cleanse us...this is when we should begin to live righteously by denying ourselves, taking up our cross daily and following Jesus. In other words, our lives should be changing with the help of Christ. If I sin again during this process, do I not have to repent of that sin and be cleansed again? Yes...for every time I sin, I separate myself from God. This is the continual process that we must go through until we have completely crucified the flesh and sin no more.
So, like I said in my first point, you don't believe that we are declared righteous at the time we have faith. According to you, it is a continual process, going on "until we have completely crucified the flesh and sin no more." This cannot mean anything else but that God does not declare us fully, legally righteous at the time we first place our faith in Christ.
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Why do you say that if one is obedient to Gods commands they are adding to what Jesus has done especially when Jesus specifically tells us to do this?
Because you claim that such obedience is a requirement to be accepted by God, thus adding to Christ's payment for sin.
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If one is truly repentant and changes their lives (i.e. by living in the Spirit by the power of Christ and not their flesh, trusting Christ to continually cleanse one if they stumble) and lives obediently to Gods commands because we love God and want to please Him and because we are called to do this by Jesus....being holy and perfect as the Father is perfect....what are we adding in your estimation?
Again, you are attempting to add our own personal obedience to what Christ has done because you make our salvation dependent upon that obedience. If you said obedience was required for sanctification and living the Christian life, I would agree with you. But you make personal obedience the ground of our justification, the absolute necessity without which salvation cannot take place, according to you. This leads to the notion that we can never be fully sure of whether we are accepted with God because our justification is ongoing, a continuing process. The New Testament, however, clearly teaches that God justifies those who do not work but who trust him who justifies the ungodly. He justifies the UNgodly (Romans 4:5) because He imputes the perfect righteousness of Christ to them. Since Christ's righteousness is perfect, and it is imputed to those who have faith, then there is nothing we can add to it. Thus, all we can do is have faith.
The other day I watched his show because I must admit, his voice soothes and relaxes me. I get to the end and I was mortified, he looks at the screen and addresses the viewers, his exact words were
"Here's a simple prayer you can say:
(If you say this and mean it in your heart you will be saved and understand why we believe what we do.)
"Dear God I know I'm a sinner, I know I am not where I want to be, and I want your forgiveness! I believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the price for my sins.
Please wash me clean from all sin, shame, and guilt, come into my life Jesus to be my Lord and Savior. I ask this in your name Jesus.
Amen!" If you prayed that prayer then we believe you are saved.
No where in the entire segment did he talk about sin and repentance and where is a sinner's prayer in scripture?That's it, that's all I have to do? Jesus was wrong, the gate to heaven IS broad.
LOL, and he says the exact same thing every time he is on. Which is why I don't listen to him anymore, it is annoying...
"Dear God I know I'm a sinner, I know I am not where I want to be, and I want your forgiveness! I believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the price for my sins.
Please wash me clean from all sin, shame, and guilt, come into my life Jesus to be my Lord and Savior. I ask this in your name Jesus.
If that isn't repentance, then please define it for us here.
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