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Personally, as I said in the other thread, I do believe a true Christian can lose their salvation.
The scripture most use who disagree with me is what you quoted also...
"Another Scripture that emphasize this truth is John 10:27-29 where Jesus says:
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand"
You cannot take my salvation from me. Joe cannot. Mary cannot. No one can snatch me out of God's hand. However, I can choose to not follow Him anymore, and "remove myself from His hand" so to speak.
Just as I said about 2 Peter 2:20-22...someone in the other thread said they believe Peter is talking to someone who refuses to believe the gospel... I happen to believe that "those who have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" are those who have obeyed the gospel and are saved. Then, when "they are again entangled therein", they have left the truth that they once believed and are living a worldly life again...therefore, forsaking or giving up their salvation.
As I said before... no one is going to tell me that while I was faithful for ten years that I wasn't truly saved. I know I had received full salvation from God. But right now, while I'm entangled in the world again, do I believe if I died today that I would be saved? No. Do I believe that I can repent and ask for forgiveness and get my salvation back? Yes.
I do think that as long as we strive to be Christ like, even though we will sin, all we have to do is repent and ask for forgiveness, but as long as we haven't turned our backs on God, we have not and will not lose our salvation. But if we choose to turn on our backs on Him, we are like the "dog who is turned to his own vomit again"...
One is forming an opinion and stating it, the other is probing. Remember we are talking about salvation. Anytime I witness to someone and they say, they are Christian, I probe with questions that Christians should know. This tells me about their "salvation"
And what do you call this "conclusion you draw" about their salvation after this probing? THAT is not a judgment of the person's salvation? Careful, Fundy . . . the temptation to judge is a very human one . . . easy to do . . . hard to avoid. "Judge not" . . . whether you call it probing or something else.
And what do you call this "conclusion you draw" about their salvation after this probing? THAT is not a judgment of the person's salvation? Careful, Fundy . . . the temptation to judge is a very human one . . . easy to do . . . hard to avoid. "Judge not" . . . whether you call it probing or something else.
Do you consider yourself to be a "good" person?
How many lies have you told?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever lusted after a person?
Have you ever hated someone?
Under you own admission, you are a lieing, thieving, murderer, adulterer. Those are four of the 10 commandments there are another 6. This is God's standard of righteousness. On the day of judgment how will the just judge who is God find you? innocent or guilty?, heaven or hell?
You would be surprised how it works and definitely shows lukewarm Christians where they stand without me judging their salvation.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-15-2008 at 09:35 PM..
A true Christian cannot lose his salvation because in order to be a Christian you must attain salvation so if you lose that salvation then it proves you were never a true Christian.
Put a different way illustrated between two lovers:
"If you love me you will never hurt me so if you hurt me it proves you don't/never [really] love(d) me."
Do you consider yourself to be a good person.
How many lies have you told?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever lusted after a person?
Have you ever hated someone?
Under you own admission, you are a lieing, thieving, murderer, adulterer. Those are four of the 10 commandments there are another 6. This is God's standard of righteousness. On the day of judgment how will the just judge who is God find you? innocent or guilty?, heaven or hell?
You would be surprised how it works and definitely shows lukewarm Christians where they stand without me judging their salvation.
But the conclusion you draw after the probing still ends up being a final judgment about their salvation, does it not? I can just about guarantee you that everyone at one time or another had lied...so if they answer yes to your question about lying, are you assuming they do not have salvation? I'm kind of confused.
Just so you know, I am not under the belief that we are not to judge others. I think people need to continue reading once they start, "Judge not, lest you be judged"...
But the conclusion you draw after the probing still ends up being a final judgment about their salvation, does it not? I can just about guarantee you that everyone at one time or another had lied...so if they answer yes to your question about lying, are you assuming they do not have salvation? I'm kind of confused.
Just so you know, I am not under the belief that we are not to judge others. I think people need to continue reading once they start, "Judge not, lest you be judged"...
OH! I judge as long as I am not a hypocrite, I want to judge rightly, if my friend is cheating on his wife, I have to talk to my friend.
No I am not judging their salvation. God has already judged them, I show them the Law, and as the Apostle Paul said, "the Law killed him", "he would not have known sin if not for the Law" it's the Law that judges them, not me. I merely give them the message.
"Law to the proud, grace to the humble"
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 12-15-2008 at 09:51 PM..
OH! I judge as long as I am not a hypocrite, I want to judge rightly, if my friend is cheating on his wife, I have to talk to my friend.
No I am not judging them. God has already judged them, I show them the Law, and as the Apostle Paul said, "the Law killed him", it's the law that judges, not me. I merely give the message.
If your not going to base the fact that a christian can lose or shipwreck his faith from all of the verses in the Bible, then I would have to ask this...
What is the point of 1 Peter 5:8
"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour"
If the those who are already prey (unbelievers) are devoured by the devil, for whom then is the devil prowling for? More unbelievers? I can not think of any other victim that the devil prowls for than a weak\ new Christian.
Jesus warnings are exactly that...warnings. Why warn if its not possible?
Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." Matthew 24:4
Jesus answered: "Watchout that no one deceives you. 2 John 1:8 Watchout that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
Those who do not think it is possible, listen to Jesus.
Matthew 11:6
Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." Matthew 13:21
"But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away."
If your not going to base the fact that a christian can lose or shipwreck his faith from all of the verses in the Bible, then I would have to ask this...
What is the point of 1 Peter 5:8
"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour"
If the those who are already prey (unbelievers) are devoured by the devil, for whom then is the devil prowling for? More unbelievers? I can not think of any other victim that the devil prowls for than a weak\ new Christian.
Jesus warnings are exactly that...warnings. Why warn if its not possible?
Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." Matthew 24:4
Jesus answered: "Watchout that no one deceives you. 2 John 1:8 Watchout that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
Those who do not think it is possible, listen to Jesus.
Matthew 11:6
Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me." Matthew 13:21
"But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away."
I don't see how any of these verses talk about losing your salvation. Christians can sin for a season which is falling away.
I love the Lord, my God, with all my heart. He is never more pleased with me than when I am full of love for Him. I know this. He shows me this. He has given me a grieved and merciful heart. I feel for everyone that feels they must be the right one. We don't have to be right. Only the Lord does. I thank Him for my personal relationship with Him. Without it, I would be lost.
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