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How are we accountable for our choices if we did not have the capacity to make them?
Think about some choices you make. There are some choices that I have little control over. Like I can't really kill a person for nothing but personal gain in a regular society. There are people than can kill for no reason. And can't not do it. We turn them off or lock them away forever.
We don't say "they can't be any different." and let them go. That is about the silliest thing I ever heard. What is sick is that there are people that think like that.
I am an atheist so I don;t do a god thing watching us. I kind of speak to in two ways.
I would speak to it terms of "when your flesh melts away and you see what you done, you will hold yourself accountable." And as we all know, people that self-reflect are often harder on themselves than anybody else.
or, I don't care what the sin is, god would see us like we see monkeys killing each other. That's is it. Some people just think we are far more special than we are. sometimes.
Moral responsibility to a totally depraved person suggests they can stop sinning in and of themselves. But everything everyone does is a sin if not of faith. And faith is a product of the Holy Spirit you must have before faith exists. That is, God must save you before you can have faith.
I don't believe that.
For one, we are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), and we do not have access to grace except by faith (Romans 5:1-2). Therefore, faith comes before grace and thus it also comes before salvation.
Secondly, a depraved person cannot stop sinning in and of themselves; but this does not take away moral responsibility. For, there is the Cross to consider. Through the Cross,a morally depraved sinner can be delivered from sin; and therefore the crux of their moral responsibility lies in what they do with Jesus and the Cross.
For one, we are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), and we do not have access to grace except by faith (Romans 5:1-2). Therefore, faith comes before grace and thus it also comes before salvation.
Secondly, a depraved person cannot stop sinning in and of themselves; but this does not take away moral responsibility. For, there is the Cross to consider. Through the Cross,a morally depraved sinner can be delivered from sin; and therefore the crux of their moral responsibility lies in what they do with Jesus and the Cross.
You have it exactly backward. God must regenerate you before you can have biblical faith. Why? because faith is a fruit of the Spirit. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900) “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2 (KJV 1900)
I'm confused as to why you are making these jumps in reasoning that are not logical.
God did not create a scenario in which God's creation needs to be saved from something.
God created everything Good. God created man with certain attributes; one of those attributes being free will. The nature of man, as created by God, was such that he had potential for greatness or "divinization/theosis". In order for a being to have that potential, there must also be a potential for a fall.
If there is no possibility of failure, then success is meaningless. Get it?
I get that...
In order to have a choice, (there must be at least 2 'possible selections'), Ive asked the question before, "what would life be like, if there was NO 'fallen angels' here with us", would temptation still exist the same way it does today? IDK the answer to that, its always said that these fallen angels actively tempt us and influence our world and individually.
My problem is not with the fact that angels fell, or were removed from Heaven...its that God INTENTIONALLY sent them here, to our world, (and not only that, but he gave them the ability to influence and access human beings (the world and individually)...
Point being...God must have had some reason for doing these things?
WHY send angels that rebelled (due to pride and humans)...to the place that humans live?!!! LOL
***If you knew for a fact a group of people hated your children and wanted to rule over them and ultimately harm them...would you intentionally give them access and influence to your kids? LOL
Or, would you do everything in your power to make sure they can come nowhere close to your kids?
In order to have a choice, (there must be at least 2 'possible selections'), Ive asked the question before, "what would life be like, if there was NO 'fallen angels' here with us", would temptation still exist the same way it does today? IDK the answer to that, its always said that these fallen angels actively tempt us and influence our world and individually.
If the devil had not been cast to earth, then Adam would never have been tempted and would never have sinned. He and Eve would have lived forever in natural bliss, and they would have produced progeny who would also live forever in natural bliss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
My problem is not with the fact that angels fell, or were removed from Heaven...its that God INTENTIONALLY sent them here, to our world, (and not only that, but he gave them the ability to influence and access human beings (the world and individually)...
Point being...God must have had some reason for doing these things?
WHY send angels that rebelled (due to pride and humans)...to the place that humans live?!!! LOL
If man were never tempted, then there would never be an opportunity to excel to greatness, merit heaven, and experience supernatural bliss.
There would have also been no reason or opportunity to send Christ.
"O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
***If you knew for a fact a group of people hated your children and wanted to rule over them and ultimately harm them...would you intentionally give them access and influence to your kids? LOL
Or, would you do everything in your power to make sure they can come nowhere close to your kids?
It depends. If greater good would ultimately come from that initial harm, then yes it would be good to allow it.
God obviously knows more than we do; and He can see everything, every outcome.
If there is no free will then there is no moral responsibility.
Thats human rationalization. Mans will is a slave to sin and God stills hold him accountable for sinning. And to say the least God is Just in doing so ! Jesus said Jn 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
***If you knew for a fact a group of people hated your children and wanted to rule over them and ultimately harm them...would you intentionally give them access and influence to your kids? LOL
Or, would you do everything in your power to make sure they can come nowhere close to your kids?
I would take (and have) the 3rd option:
I would teach my children how to learn to avoid the pitfalls of evil;
and that they have the choice to either oppose it,
with love and sacrifice affording them the opportunity & challenge to rise to heroic levels of valor & virtue;
or they can choose to simply acquiesce and but let it consume them.
Thankfully none of my children have chosen to just be robots!
I'm confused as to why you are making these jumps in reasoning that are not logical.
God did not create a scenario in which God's creation needs to be saved from something.
God created everything Good. God created man with certain attributes; one of those attributes being free will. The nature of man, as created by God, was such that he had potential for greatness or "divinization/theosis". In order for a being to have that potential, there must also be a potential for a fall.
If there is no possibility of failure, then success is meaningless. Get it?
Sin is the absence of obedience at any level.
Righteousness is obedience to God on a personal level.
I discipline my will to seek God’s will.
I am not perfect , God knows my heart.
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