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Brother Rosey, Your threads and posts have added tremendously to my enjoyment of the forum. You have outstanding sources. Bless you, my friend.
My friend Mystic: If only there was a way to articulate the vastness of the One who dwells in the realm of exceedingly above all we can think, my weary head could rest at last.
Alas, He dwells within dimensions that my pea brain and corresponding spirit has yet to know. I do appreciate your kind expression.
The love of the Lord NEVER ceases, it is bathed in steadfast!
Yes, I see what you're saying here about the necessity of reading the text. And trusting what we read.
What jumps out immediately to me though is that the translation you've selected has inserted the phrase "the people of all the nations" rather than simply as the Greek text reads "the nations", which are gathered before Jesus and are being divided.
It would seem that the translation has taken the liberty to interpret what the text has really not said, thereby removing any possible revelation that might be given to the reader through the Spirit. And I'm not sure we should trust this interpretive translation of the actual text here.
With that said, what is your understanding of the word "nations" Gk: εθνη, and how do you understand the term "nations" as being "divided" Gk: αφορισει, as "them" Gk: αυτους ? Are the nations being divided collectively as nations, ie: China from Russia, New Zealand from Australia, etc. Or do we understand it as divided individuals. The Gk text here is εθνη (in the Gender: Neuter) while the term αυτους (them) is in the Gender: masculine. Why the difference? And is it an important distinction in the text?
If we are to understand it as individuals being divided, rather than "nations", how so? Does an individual appear in the resurrection as soul, body and spirit, collectively as a single entity, to be judged? Or are they "divided" first, as spirit and flesh as such, and then judged accordingly?
And what is the meaning of the term "nations". Does it include Israel among the nations? Or, possibly is it being limited to only the Gentile nations, how the meaning of the term εθνη is often used in context, especially by Jesus....?
This is a very interesting topic that needs your interpretive help.
If we are to understand it as individuals being divided, rather than "nations", how so? Does an individual appear in the resurrection as soul, body and spirit, collectively as a single entity, to be judged? Or are they "divided" first, as spirit and flesh as such, and then judged accordingly?
Revelation 20: 11-12; Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sits on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence and were seen no more. 12And I saw 'the dead,' great and small alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened, and then another book was opened, the book of the living. 'The dead' were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.
Do the dead have physical bodies?
Who is it that sits on the great white throne before which the spirits of the dead stand in judgement? Is it He, of who it is said in Revelation 21: 5-8; Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” 6And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it. 7Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. 8But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
If we are to understand it as individuals being divided, rather than "nations", how so? Does an individual appear in the resurrection as soul, body and spirit, collectively as a single entity, to be judged? Or are they "divided" first, as spirit and flesh as such, and then judged accordingly?
Revelation 20: 11-12; Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sits on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence and were seen no more. 12And I saw 'the dead,' great and small alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened, and then another book was opened, the book of the living. 'The dead' were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.
Do the dead have physical bodies?
Who is it that sits on the great white throne before which the spirits of the dead stand in judgement? Is it He, of who it is said in Revelation 21: 5-8; Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” 6And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it. 7Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. 8But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
Yes, I would agree with you that "the dead" Gk: τους νεκρους (with the definite article here) are being judged in the text cited above. Is it your understanding that "εθνη" represents "τους νεκρους" rather than "the people of the nations" as previously interpreted in Mat 25:32 of your translation? This is important with respect to understanding of the scriptures at this initial point.
How are you defining "εθνη" in Mat 25:32 before moving on to τους νεκρους in Rev 20:12 ? Does εθνη consist of the whole person? Or, is it referencing the spirit of man, the breath of God, the lamp and candle of the Lord, if you will? Or would it be limited to the natural man, the carnal nature of man, so to speak? Or, rather simply a corpse, the literal meaning of νεκρους. What part of "the people" or the person (if this is what you're advocating for) are you interpreting as being of "the dead"?
Yes, I would agree with you that "the dead" Gk: τους νεκρους (with the definite article here) are being judged in the text cited above. Is it your understanding that "εθνη" represents "τους νεκρους" rather than "persons" as previously interpreted in Mat 25:32 of your translation? This is important with respect to understanding of the scriptures at this initial point.
How are you defining "εθνη" in Mat 25:32 before moving on to τους νεκρους in Rev 20:12 ? Does εθνη consist of the whole person? Or, is it referencing the spirit of man, the breath of God, the lamp and candle of the Lord, if you will? Or would it be limited to the natural man, the carnal nature of man, so to speak? What part of the "person" are you defining as "the dead"?
You ask, what part of the "person" am I defining as "the dead"?
The mind that had developed within the body, and had been imprinted into the living soul, before it (The Body) died, as all must.
“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, (Or as Jesus put it, Heart, soul, and mind) but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [The divine Animating principle that pervades the entire universal body.] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become ‘WHO YOU ARE’, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]
If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”
Then of the Thee in Me who works behind The veil,
I lifted up my hands to find A lamp amid the Darkness;
and I heard, As from Without----
“The Me within Thee is blind.”----- By Omar Khayyam.
You ask, what part of the "person" am I defining as "the dead"?
The mind that had developed within the body, and had been imprinted into the living soul, before it (The Body) died, as all must.
“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, (Or as Jesus put it, Heart, soul, and mind) but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [The divine Animating principle that pervades the entire universal body.] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become ‘WHO YOU ARE’, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]
If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”
Then of the Thee in Me who works behind The veil,
I lifted up my hands to find A lamp amid the Darkness;
and I heard, As from Without----
“The Me within Thee is blind.”----- By Omar Khayyam.
I'm not really sure what to make of this, but thanks.
Is it your understanding that the "mind" of a person is actually being spoken of in Mat 25:32 and represents the "nations" that are being divided for judgement? And that this "mind" is also being represented as "the dead"? It would probably be best if we used scriptural terms to define what we mean. And perhaps a scripture reference or two for proper context.
I'm not really sure what to make of this, but thanks.
Is it your understanding that the "mind" of a person is actually being spoken of in Mat 25:32 and represents the "nations" that are being divided for judgement? And that this "mind" is also being represented as "the dead"? It would probably be best if we used scriptural terms to define what we mean. And perhaps a scripture reference or two for proper context.
Your question to me was; "What part of the "person" are you defining as "the dead"? Which I have answered.
Now let me ask you a question, It is said that "All have sinned, and all must die once then go off into judgment." So my question to you is, after the body has died and has been returned to the universal elements from which it was created; what part of the person goes off into Judgement, and what is the 'SECOND DEATH' that has no power over the DEAD that have been Judged as being righteous?
Your question to me was; "What part of the "person" are you defining as "the dead"? Which I have answered.
Now let me ask you a question, It is said that "All have sinned, and all must die once then go off into judgment." So my question to you is, after the body has died and has been returned to the universal elements from which it was created; what part of the person goes off into Judgement, and what is the 'SECOND DEATH' that has no power over the DEAD that have been Judged as being righteous?
Well, here is how I see it:
The natural man that receives not the things of the Spirit "goes off into judgement". For flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The judgement spoken of in Mat 25:32 is against the flesh, "the dead" as it were, that works the iniquity stated in Rev. 21:8.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The word "they" (v. 21) "which do such things" in the text is actually being translated from the Gk. definite article "οι", referring back to the flesh (v. 19).
The flesh's inability to perform spiritual works is also alluded to here, by Christ:
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat, I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in, naked, and ye clothed me not, sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
This is the actual separation of the "nations" and the dividing of the "sheep from the goats", or rather spirit from flesh that Christ spoke of in Mat 25:32 and Mat.7:23.
The "second death" stated in Rev 21:8 is of the flesh that works iniquity, spoken of here:
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Surprisingly, the word "ye" in this text is really not being translated from a Gk. pronoun as we think of it, but rather again from the Gk. definite article "οι", and is really "that which works iniquity" rather than "ye that work.." as we so often read in our translations. It's the flesh, the natural man within us that Christ "never knew", and is told to depart. This is actually a very good thing by the way. This prepares all to enter the Kingdom.
This "second death" has no power over the spirit of man, that breath of God and His Kingdom that resides within us. And this is how we are to know and love our fellow man, even now prior to judgement:
2Co 5:16 Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh; even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
The natural man that receives not the things of the Spirit "goes off into judgement". For flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The judgement spoken of in Mat 25:32 is against the flesh, "the dead" as it were, that works the iniquity stated in Rev. 21:8.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
The word "they" (v. 21) "which do such things" in the text is actually being translated from the Gk. definite article "οι", referring back to the flesh (v. 19).
The flesh's inability to perform spiritual works is also alluded to here, by Christ:
Mat 25:42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat, I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in, naked, and ye clothed me not, sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
This is the actual separation of the "nations" and the dividing of the "sheep from the goats", or rather spirit from flesh that Christ spoke of in Mat 25:32 and Mat.7:23.
The "second death" stated in Rev 21:8 is of the flesh that works iniquity, spoken of here:
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Surprisingly, the word "ye" in this text is really not being translated from a Gk. pronoun as we think of it, but rather again from the Gk. definite article "οι", and is really "that which works iniquity" rather than "ye that work.." as we so often read in our translations. It's the flesh, the natural man within us that Christ "never knew", and is told to depart. This is actually a very good thing by the way. This prepares all to enter the Kingdom.
This "second death" has no power over the spirit of man, that breath of God and His Kingdom that resides within us. And this is how we are to know and love our fellow man, even now prior to judgement:
2Co 5:16 Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh; even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
The second death has no power over the spirits/'minds of the righteous, but it does have power over the spirits of the unrepentant wicked, who are cast into the eternal fire, which God had prepared for the devil. Which is the second death for those unrepentant wicked spirits/minds, the everlasting death from which those minds can never return.
Which minds are divided from the soul, after which, God will provide those apparent dead souls with a new Heart/body, in which a new mind/spirit is developed in the new world of righteousness.
Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”
If you were convicted of a capital offence and were offered the choice of a lethal injection after which your dead body would be incinerated, or an injection that removes all your memories from your living soul, and while you are in that induced coma, your brain is reprogramed with an artificial memory, which one would you choose? Not that it really matters, because either way, 'YOU' are forever dead.
Last edited by The Anointed; 10-27-2020 at 11:34 PM..
The second death has no power over the spirits/'minds of the righteous, but it does have power over the spirits of the unrepentant wicked, who are cast into the eternal fire, which God had prepared for the devil. Which is the second death for those unrepentant wicked spirits/minds, the everlasting death from which those minds can never return.
Which minds are divided from the soul, after which, God will provide those apparent dead souls with a new Heart/body, in which a new mind/spirit is developed in the new world of righteousness.
Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”
If you were convicted of a capital offence and were offered the choice of a lethal injection after which your dead body would be incinerated, or an injection that removes all your memories from your living soul, and while you are in that induced coma, your brain is reprogramed with an artificial memory, which one would you choose? Not that it really matters, because either way, 'YOU' are forever dead.
Actually, what you've stated here is pretty much what I put forward but perhaps doing it somewhat differently by using scripture. The concepts are really quite similar if not the same though.
The phrase you used "spirits/'minds of the righteous", if I might using biblical terms or phrases, is the "candle of the Lord". The candle of the Lord is the spirit of man, the light of the soul.
What you've described as being "the spirits of the unrepentant wicked" is again, using biblical terms, the "flesh". The carnal nature of man. The fleshly nature that is unable to repent, always being at enmity with our spirit.
Your phrase "Which minds are divided from the soul" are the "nations", the sheep and goats if you will standing before Christ. The flesh stands alone in judgement, if you will, having been separated from the spirit in the first death.
Heb 4:12 simply describes or illustrates the power of the words of Christ that will be spoken to the flesh in Mat 7:23, in the second death.
The only exception I take here is with the "You" part. I'm not really sure the best way to respond. Perhaps a simple word study of the terms "flesh" and "spirit" and their relationship to the term "soul" would clarify this? A good Hebrew and Greek lexicon / concordance might be of help too.
In any event, the essence of the soul and how we are to view ourselves and fellow man in this world (the "you" part ??) is what Paul speaks to throughout the epistles, of which I quoted one such passage in 2Co 5:16.
JJ: we are all on different stages of a journey into our Lord. Each stage leads to fuller growth and expansion of His purposes into Him. I wish you well on your life in the Christ
Wish the same for you too. This thread is a real treasure chest of thought on the subject of reconciliation of all to Christ. Something I myself hold to and what I believe scripture proclaims to us. At least to/for me.
Sometimes I think we often speak past one another in how we communicate this faith to others though. But it does make for a lively conversation and perhaps sheds light on what Paul spoke of here.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
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