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There is a very simple fact that proves that you are WRONG.
In every scripture referring to the Holy Spirit the personal pronoun, first person singular is used. He, Him, His. If what you say was true then it would be "It the Holy Spirit" and not "He the Holy Spirit".
Uh, you mean to say third person...First person would be 'I'...And you do know that both Hebrew and Greek utilize the third person, both masculine and feminine, as he/it and she/it...There is no separate word for it and it is used in conjunction with the gender of the word being used?...
Its called personification, and oddly enough, it doesn't imply personage. You ever study Spanish? A table is what, feminine or masculine? I can't remember. A book? Many languages use masculine, feminine and neuter. Hebrew and Greek, for example.
What about wisdom, sin and death? Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36) Wisdom is feminine. Paul called sin and death kings. (Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He said sin is "receiving an inducement," 'working out covetousness,' 'seducing,' and 'killing.' (Romans 7:8-11)
The Greek pneuma (spirit) itself is neuter, but when the Holy spirit is used as a helper (Greek parakletos) that is masculine, so it is always a he. It no more means the Holy Spirit is a he and therefore God than a ship is a she and therefore someones wife.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist
Later in this thread I point out that the same is true of wisdom, sin, death.
The Holy Spirit has not been personified. It is not an issue of gender. All three Persons of the Trinity are spirit and have no gender. The humanity of Jesus Christ is not being addressed here. The issue is that there are three distinct centers of consciousness, thee distinct wills within the nature of God, although those three wills are always in perfect agreement.
Regarding the Holy Spirit specifically, who is the topic of this thread, He, as was shown in the OP, and which I have copied below, is shown to have His own will. As shown in 1 Cor. 12:11 and Hebrews 2:4, it is the sovereign decision of the Holy Spirit as to what believer gets what spiritual gift.
That the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Godhead is easily shown from the Scriptures.
1.) It is God the Holy Spirit who sovereignly distributes spiritual gifts.
1 Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Hebrews 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
The Holy Spirit has a will and it is He who decides which believers get which spiritual gift.
2.) The Holy Spirit speaks, and hears, and discloses information.
Acts 13:2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
A force or an attribute does not speak, give commands, or hear, or disclose information.
3.) The Holy Spirit was lied to by Ananias and Sapphira.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4] "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
The Holy Spirit is called God here, and was lied to. You cannot lie to a mere force or an attribute.
4.) The Holy Spirit is distinguished from God the Father and from Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
You can have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. You cannot have fellowship with a mere force or attribute.
The Holy Spirit thinks, He has a will, He makes sovereign decisions, He gives commands, He discloses information that He hears from the Father, and fellowship can be had with Him.
It should be obvious to anyone who is honest with himself that the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, but is the third Person of the Trinity. Sadly, there are many people who will continue to deny the Personhood of the Holy Spirit and the triunity of God no matter how much Scriptural proof is supplied.
*****
Now, in addition to the above, God the Holy Spirit loves. Romans 15:30 Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,
The Holy Spirit intercedes. Romans 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27] and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Just as Jesus Christ continually intercedes for believers in God's presence (Heb. 7:25), the Holy Spirit also intercedes on behalf of the believer in that while believers are often ignorant of what to pray for and how to make their requests, the Holy Spirit voices their requests for them to the Father.
Now, Romans 8:27 again. 'and He (God the Father) who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
The Father knows what the mind of the Holy Spirit is because the Holy Spirit intercedes on behalf of the believer according to the will of the Father.
It is shown then that the Holy Spirit has His own mind, His own will, He loves, He intercedes, He gives spiritual gifts, He teaches, He gives directives; in short, He is a Person of the Trinity distinct from both the Father and the Son and yet One with them in the divine nature or essence.
Lewis Sperry Chafer writes regarding the personality of the Holy Spirit;
The mere citation of such a passage as John 16:13, which reads, ''Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come,'' contradicts the notion that the Spirit is no more than a divine attribute (cf. John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Matt. 28:19).
[Systematic Theology, vol. 1, p.398]
Since the Holy Spirit exercises power and influence, an argument cannot be made that the Holy Spirit is no more than the power and influence which He exercises. As has been shown, the Holy Spirit has those attributes which constitutes personhood.
Only someone with a theological ax to grind regarding the Trinity will attempt to deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-28-2012 at 10:23 AM..
"Holy is a synonym for God or the Spirit itself; the Holy Spirit of God."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironman2
Surely the use of language is not limited to Christian believers in the Trinity. "Holy" is an adjective describing the Spirit. It is like the Jolly Spirit of Christmas describes Santa, not a separate entity from Santa. I would think this use of language was straightforward enough for anyone, Christian or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Theist
How many things in the Bible are mentioned as holy? Bread is one. Is bread God? The nation of Israel, its people, the Priests, especially the high priests, prophets, Sabbath, Nazirite . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Bread has a divine or Holy Spirit?
Why are we making this so complicated? The "Holy" refers to the Spirit. It characterizes it. That is why Jerwade said it is God. The only Spirit that could be "Holy" would be a God. This is like the Jolly Spirit we know to be Santa.
The Holy Spirit has not been personified. It is not an issue of gender. All three Persons of the Trinity are spirit and have no gender. The humanity of Jesus Christ is not being addressed here. The issue is that there are three distinct centers of consciousness, thee distinct wills within the nature of God, although those three wills are always in perfect agreement.
Regarding the Holy Spirit specifically, who is the topic of this thread, He, as was shown in the OP, and which I have copied below, is shown to have His own will. As shown in 1 Cor. 12:11 and Hebrews 2:4, it is the sovereign decision of the Holy Spirit as to what believer gets what spiritual gift.
That the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Godhead is easily shown from the Scriptures.
1.) It is God the Holy Spirit who sovereignly distributes spiritual gifts.
1 Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Hebrews 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
The Holy Spirit has a will and it is He who decides which believers get which spiritual gift.
2.) The Holy Spirit speaks, and hears, and discloses information.
Acts 13:2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
A force or an attribute does not speak, give commands, or hear, or disclose information.
3.) The Holy Spirit was lied to by Ananias and Sapphira.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4] "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
The Holy Spirit is called God here, and was lied to. You cannot lie to a mere force or an attribute.
4.) The Holy Spirit is distinguished from God the Father and from Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
You can have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. You cannot have fellowship with a mere force or attribute.
The Holy Spirit thinks, He has a will, He makes sovereign decisions, He gives commands, He discloses information that He hears from the Father, and fellowship can be had with Him.
It should be obvious to anyone who is honest with himself that the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, but is the third Person of the Trinity. Sadly, there are many people who will continue to deny the Personhood of the Holy Spirit and the triunity of God no matter how much Scriptural proof is supplied.
*****
Now, in addition to the above, God the Holy Spirit loves. Romans 15:30 Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,
The Holy Spirit intercedes. Romans 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27] and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Just as Jesus Christ continually intercedes for believers in God's presence (Heb. 7:25), the Holy Spirit also intercedes on behalf of the believer in that while believers are often ignorant of what to pray for and how to make their requests, the Holy Spirit voices their requests for them to the Father.
Now, Romans 8:27 again. 'and He (God the Father) who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
The Father knows what the mind of the Holy Spirit is because the Holy Spirit intercedes on behalf of the believer according to the will of the Father.
It is shown then that the Holy Spirit has His own mind, His own will, He loves, He intercedes, He gives spiritual gifts, He teaches, He gives directives; in short, He is a Person of the Trinity distinct from both the Father and the Son and yet One with them in the divine nature or essence.
Lewis Sperry Chafer writes regarding the personality of the Holy Spirit;
The mere citation of such a passage as John 16:13, which reads, ''Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come,'' contradicts the notion that the Spirit is no more than a divine attribute (cf. John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Matt. 28:19).
[Systematic Theology, vol. 1, p.398]
Since the Holy Spirit exercises power and influence, an argument cannot be made that the Holy Spirit is no more than the power and influence which He exercises. As has been shown, the Holy Spirit has those attributes which constitutes personhood.
Only someone with a theological ax to grind regarding the Trinity will attempt to deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
I'm thinking this should be the last word on the matter. All excellent and irrefutable points from God's own word.
Only someone with a theological ax to grind regarding the Trinity will attempt to deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
I have no such ax to grind, and it seems to me no one is disputing the personhood of the Holy spirit. They are simply saying that the person is God, not some separate person from God. It makes complete sense linguistically and logically. It also explains why personal pronouns are used. If you were talking about what Santa did but used the appellation Jolly spirit of Christmas, you would obviously use a personal pronoun too. To use an example:
The Jolly Spirit Himself delivers gifts for us; 27] and He who searches the hearts knows what the minds of children are (naughty or nice) because He makes a list and checks it twice according to the will of Santa.
I have no such ax to grind, and it seems to me no one is disputing the personhood of the Holy spirit. They are simply saying that the person is God, not some separate person from God. It makes complete sense linguistically and logically. It also explains why personal pronouns are used. If you were talking about what Santa did but used the appellation Jolly spirit of Christmas, you would obviously use a personal pronoun too. To use an example:
The Jolly Spirit Himself delivers gifts for us; 27] and He who searches the hearts knows what the minds of children are (naughty or nice) because He makes a list and checks it twice according to the will of Santa.
You have not been paying attention to what they are saying. They do indeed deny that the Holy Spirit is a Person. If they understood that the Holy Spirit is a Person of the Godhead there would be no need for this thread.
The Holy Spirit is one of three Persons who are God. The One God subsists in three Persons. Within the divine nature by which God is One, there are three distinct centers of conscousness, thee distinct wills who are always in perfect agreement with each other. The First Person is called the Father. The Second Person is Jesus Christ, called the Son of God which is a title of His deity, but distinquishes Him from the First Person of the Trinity. The Third Person is called among many other titles, the Holy Spirit. These three Persons are the one true God.
I'm thinking this should be the last word on the matter. All excellent and irrefutable points from God's own word.
You would think so, but unfortunately there are always going to be those who, while claiming to be believers, deny the true nature of God and thereby dishonor Him. And in the light of the clear revelation of Scripture, they cannot even claim ignorance. It is in the case of those who have had these things explained to them, nothing less than willful denial of the truth.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-28-2012 at 02:47 PM..
Jesus' Baptism also clearly proclaims the Trinity. The Father speaks from heaven. He says, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. So now we have the second person of the Trinity. Then the HOly Spirit comes down and alights on Jesus in the form of a dove. Now you have three Persons, three manifestations of God. Therefore Trinity.
You critics of the OP can complain all you want but the doctrine of the Trinity is established Christian doctrine since about 325AD. The Nicene Creed clearly teaches this and has been accepted as true Doctrine by Rome, the Eastern orthodox churches and most of those churches which were part of the protestant Reformation. So you can argue all you want but your still WAY outnumbered. Its only in the last few hundred years that it has been rejected by so many false teachers.
Arianism rejected the doctrine of the Trinity and completely died out. God had everything to do with that.
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