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Really? But what if a person OBEYS Christ? Christ is not here walking among us. He is Spirit, the Holy Ghost. What about the folks that were not raised to believe "in" the name of our Lord, but are busy obeying Him per their conscience? Bible says that Jesus moves inside and sups with those that invite Him in as He knocks.
How can we invite Him in since He is Spirit?
By wordlessly obeying the Spirit that is dealing with us, and therefore we ca ben saved by obeying Jesus' spirit even if we don't yet know His name is Jesus.
Remember, bible also says that those that practice righteousness ARE righteous.
Really? But what if a person OBEYS Christ? Christ is not here walking among us. He is Spirit, the Holy Ghost. What about the folks that were not raised to believe "in" the name of our Lord, but are busy obeying Him per their conscience? Bible says that Jesus moves inside and sups with those that invite Him in as He knocks.
How can we invite Him in since He is Spirit?
By wordlessly obeying the Spirit that is dealing with us, and therefore we ca ben saved by obeying Jesus' spirit even if we don't yet know His name is Jesus.
Remember, bible also says that those that practice righteousness ARE righteous.
This in no way supports Universalism which I have asked you not to bring up in this thread as that is not the topic.
Hi Mike, I will review what you shared, but this wasn't shared to speak on Universalism but to show that in God subjecting all things to Himself, God violates what some believe to be man's free will. God bless.
"Jerusalem! Jerusalem! How many times do I want to assemble your children in the manner a hen is assembling her brood under her wings-and you will not!"
Was Jerusalem wrong for failing to accept Jesus? Yes, those who rejected the Lord and crucified Him were wrong. But it was part of the plan. What if they had chosen Him and accepted Him? How then would the scriptures have been fulfilled? He would not have had to suffer and die but we know that He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8) It had to be done. Jesus felt the pain of rejection just like he felt the pain of Judas betraying Him but it had to be done. Jesus came in the flesh and experienced the emotions, just as he did when Lazarus died, and Mary wept. Yet and still He knew that Lazarus would come forth anyway. He was sorrowful but He knew what was going to happen.
The people had to reject Him, so then, were they really refusing Him of their own free will, if the scriptures had to be fulfilled? God bless.
Shana, Israel did not have to reject Christ. But God had always known that most of the Jews would reject Christ. Jesus offered the kingdom to Israel during His First Advent. He knew that He would be rejected by Israel, and that the kingdom would be postphoned until His Second Advent, but nevertheless He gave Israel the opportunity to accept His offer. The fact that He knew they would reject the offer did not negate the fact that they had been given a choice.
If Israel had accepted the offer of the kingdom, if they had accepted Him as the Messiah, Jesus still would have had to have gone to the cross and die for the sins of the world. He would have set up the kingdom afterwards.
Knowing from eternity past that Israel would reject Christ as the Messiah God planned to put the dispensation of Israel on hold temporarily so that He could call out a new people for Himself called the Church. He knew that when the church-age was brought to a close with the rapture of the church, He would turn His attention back to Israel with the Tribulation which will cause Israel to realize that Jesus is the Messiah which they rejected.
God's predetermined plan took in all of man's volitional decisions, both positive and negative, and incorporated them into that plan.
"Being omniscient, He had the good sense to know ahead of time what we would decide, and He not only decreed that those decisions would exist but He also decreed the exact manner, consistent with His integrity, in which He would handle our decisions. "
So according to the author God had the good sense to know ahead of time what we would decide. So, if God knows that people will not choose Him ahead of time, how are they being given the opportunity to be believe and be saved?
Quote:
God hardened Pharoah's heart in the sense of presenting Pharoah with a situation which God knew would initiate a negative reaction from Pharoah
So then God knew that Pharaoh's heart would harden when presented with this situation and God presented this in order to harden Pharaoh's heart. God controlled the situation and affected Pharaoh's heart.
Shana, Israel did not have to reject Christ. But God had always known that most of the Jews would reject Christ. Jesus offered the kingdom to Israel during His First Advent. He knew that He would be rejected by Israel, and that the kingdom would be postphoned until His Second Advent, but nevertheless He gave Israel the opportunity to accept His offer. The fact that He knew they would reject the offer did not negate the fact that they had been given a choice.
If Israel had accepted the offer of the kingdom, if they had accepted Him as the Messiah, Jesus still would have had to have gone to the cross and die for the sins of the world. He would have set up the kingdom afterwards.
If Jesus knew that Israel was not going to choose Him before He offered them the kingdom, did they really have a choice to accept Him? It was already written that they would not choose Him. It had already been decided by God. How could it be that they did not have to reject Him if it was already decided?
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-29-2011 at 10:33 PM..
I believe that in one sense those Israelites who rejected Jesus were responsible for that choice from their viewpoint or on their part, but ultimately, there was no other choice for them to make because God had already knew what would happen and also decreed this. So God really held the ball. God bless.
If Jesus knew that Israel was not going to choose Him before He offered them the kingdom, did they really have a choice to accept Him? It was already written that they would not choose Him. It had already been decided by God.
God bless.
Yes! Absolutely they had a choice. God's decisions recognize man's volition. Prophecy is simply history written in advance. God knew that Israel would reject Christ, but as I tried to make clear in post #110, God's knowledge of future events does not negate volition. I hope that you will avail yourself of the following study from pastor William Wenstrom which goes into far more detail then I did and which shows how God's omniscience, decrees, and foreknowledge make man's volition a reality.
How could they have made a different choice, Mike? I did read the study but as I shared,
From the article
"Being omniscient, He had the good sense to know ahead of time what we would decide, and He not only decreed that those decisions would exist but He also decreed the exact manner, consistent with His integrity, in which He would handle our decisions. "
So according to the author God had the good sense to know ahead of time what we would decide. So, if God knows that people will not choose Him ahead of time, how are they being given the opportunity to be believe and be saved?
Okay, I must turn in for now, have to get up early. Have enjoyed the discussion. God bless.
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