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Sorry . . . but God does not play games with us, Shana. God knowing does NOT mean God decreeing or requiring. He gave us Dominion by His express Will. That was not a sometimes thing . . . it is ALL the time. There is no time that God will interfere and impose His Will here on earth after giving US Dominion. This does not preclude God urging and otherwise trying to influence our choices through the Holy Spirit that resides within our consciousness by guiding us to what God has "written in our hearts." We make our own choices because we have Dominion over the earth, period. God COULD do whatever He wants . . . but He CHOSE to give us Dominion by His express Will. He will not take it back.
How could they have made a different choice, Mike? I did read the study but as I shared,
From the article
"Being omniscient, He had the good sense to know ahead of time what we would decide, and He not only decreed that those decisions would exist but He also decreed the exact manner, consistent with His integrity, in which He would handle our decisions. "
So according to the author God had the good sense to know ahead of time what we would decide. So, if God knows that people will not choose Him ahead of time, how are they being given the opportunity to be believe and be saved?
Okay, I must turn in for now, have to get up early. Have enjoyed the discussion. God bless.
Shana, God's pre-existing knowledge of future events does not negate the reality of volitional choice. Whether or not a person accepts Christ in time is not affected by God's knowledge of their decision.
In point of fact, God HAD to have pre-existing knowledge of man's volitional decisions so that He could decree the certain futurition of man's volitional decisions. What I am trying to make clear is that absolutely nothing can occur unless God decrees it. But the fact that God decrees man's volitional decisions is not the cause of man's volitional decisions. The divine decrees merely acknowledge the decision and make it a reality.
The decree does not cause the volitional decision, but rather in acknowledgement of the volitional decision, God decrees it so that it can in fact occur.
Again, the decree is based on God's omniscience of the reality of future events. The decree of God makes possible the certain futurition of what God has perceived in His omniscience as the volitional choices of man in time.
Man's volitional decisions in time resulted in God decreeing them in eternity past so that they could occur in human history.
God eternally knew that Adam would disobey His command not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And He decreed that that disbedience would occur. But the decree did not cause Adam to disobey. The decree simply made possible the certain futurition of the act of disobedience which God's omniscience knew about. Adam had the choice to obey God or disobey. God provided the opportunity for Adam to make that choice and knew from eternity past what Adam's choice would be. God's omniscience knew about it, God's sovereignty permitted it, and God's decree made its certain futurition a reality.
Sorry . . . but God does not play games with us, Shana. God knowing does NOT mean God decreeing or requiring. He gave us Dominion by His express Will. That was not a sometimes thing . . . it is ALL the time. There is no time that God will interfere and impose His Will here on earth after giving US Dominion. This does not preclude God urging and otherwise trying to influence our choices through the Holy Spirit that resides within our consciousness by guiding us to what God has "written in our hearts." We make our own choices because we have Dominion over the earth, period. God COULD do whatever He wants . . . but He CHOSE to give us Dominion by His express Will. He will not take it back.
Assuming this is true, we live in a very dangerous world as far as our temporal life is concerned. Are you implying, Mystic that our prayers are ineffective, for instance if we pray for safety from murderers, or for protection while traveling. Does the mad-man's free will to rape and/or murder prevent God from granting a petition of divine protection for those who take time to pray? Do you see my dilemma with your insinuation that God does not "meddle" in the affairs of humanity. Why does the scripture tell us to petition God for all the things that we are concerned about? Also, another scripture states that "you have not because you ask not". I also have a Christian friend who believes we can be in the wrong place at the wrong time IF we are not tuned into what the Spirit is saying to us. Just wanted to throw this out there for discussion. Peace - Heartsong
I wasn't able to sleep, so here I am Alright, Mike, going back to your initial post, you stated:
Quote:
"God calls through the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts at the point of gospel hearing. Man can resist the Holy Spirit, or he can come to Christ through a positive faith response to the gospel. It is his choice.
It is those who God knew would believe on Christ who He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
God does not desire that anyone perish as 2 Peter 3:9 states. Therefore God does not choose for some to be saved while choosing that others be eternally condemned. God desires that all men be saved as 2 Tim 2:4 states.
Therefore, God did everything necessary so that man can be saved. Man need only respond to the invitation, to the offer of salvation by making a personal decision to believe on Christ."
The alternative is the second death which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
It IS the most important choice that every person will ever make.
Are you saying then, Mike, that God who is said to be love, knew before anyone was ever created/born, that billions and billions of people would make the choice to reject Jesus and He then made this choice a reality for all of these billions and billions of people, having prepared a lake of fire that they will burn in for all of eternity? There is no way then, since He decreed their decision, that they would not burn forever in the lake of fire. If this is true, how then is Jesus said to be their Savior? It goes back to what I asked before.
If someone digs a a pit and they say to a person that is coming upon them, maybe miles away, " I don't want you to fall into the pit" but they know that the person will fall into the pit anyway as they dig the pit. Can you not see the contradiction? Here we have God the Father of all of these souls bringing them into existence, knowing before hand that they will not choose Him, yet bringing them into existence only to burn forever in a lake of fire. It does not correspond to scriptures which tell us that God is the Savior of all men because He never plans to save them. They are doomed from moment they are born and even before they are born, even before they are convicted by the Holy Spirit. You say that God desires for all to be saved and is not willing that any should perish, but at this very moment how many babies are being born to burn for all of eternity with no hope?
I am sorry I will have to disagree. It does not correspond with agape love or the teaching in the scripture that God will have all to be saved, that God is the Savior of all men, that Jesus died for the world.
Quote:
Therefore God does not choose for some to be saved while choosing that others be eternally condemned.
He does according to this belief, by the mere fact of bringing them into existence.
Sorry . . . but God does not play games with us, Shana. God knowing does NOT mean God decreeing or requiring. He gave us Dominion by His express Will. That was not a sometimes thing . . . it is ALL the time. There is no time that God will interfere and impose His Will here on earth after giving US Dominion. This does not preclude God urging and otherwise trying to influence our choices through the Holy Spirit that resides within our consciousness by guiding us to what God has "written in our hearts." We make our own choices because we have Dominion over the earth, period. God COULD do whatever He wants . . . but He CHOSE to give us Dominion by His express Will. He will not take it back.
I am sorry, Mystic. I will have to disagree with you and as I base much of my belief on the scriptures, we don't really have a common base imo to discuss this because I know your thoughts about the scriptures. So I will just have to say, I respectfully disagree with you. God bless.
Or these Mike on God and what is believed to be man's free will:
Hebrews 2:
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
Romans 8
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it...
Romans 9
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
Genesis 20:
4 Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though [d]blameless? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my [e]hands I have done this.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also [f]kept (restrained) you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her..
Job 12 (13-25)
Ephesians 1:
9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 [n]also we [o]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [p]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 (NAS)
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-30-2011 at 02:02 AM..
Garya123, does He open the door for all if He already knows that they will not come to Him? Like I posted before, if someone digs a pit and tells someone that they don't want the person to fall into the pit, but already knows that the person will fall into the pit even as they are digging the pit, are they really giving the person an opportunity to escape from falling into the pit? God bless.
As a parent your duty is to put food before your children to eat but if they refuse because they are too busy with other things they may come to you later between meals for it but it is too late. You will say, I told you to come in eat so don't blame me if you are hungry now.
Shana, you are misunderstanding scripture by not understanding that Christ became a Ransom for all, a hope for all but all will not come and eat the food of life provided for all. He hardens those who refuse to increase their hunger by sending them away empty handed with a rebuke. Some will realize the wisdom of God and later repent when they see others strong and healthy because of what God provides and come and eat. Some will not. One of His methods is to provoke to jealousy.
ROM 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
ROM 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and says, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
ROM 10:21 But to Israel he says, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
ROM 11:1 I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
ROM 11:2 God has not cast away his people which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture says of Elias? how he makes intercession to God against Israel saying,
ROM 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
ROM 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
ROM 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
ROM 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
ROM 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
ROM 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
He works this way not only between Jew and Gentle but within the two groups also. Jealousy is a strong weapon in the hands of God when used for salvation purposes. The wisdom of God is much higher than us and He dares to do what we do not. He hardens the rebellious and sends them away hungry for a greater purpose and a Divine goal in mind. And what you are not understanding is that He only hardens after they refuse.
Garya123, does He open the door for all if He already knows that they will not come to Him? Like I posted before, if someone digs a pit and tells someone that they don't want the person to fall into the pit, but already knows that the person will fall into the pit even as they are digging the pit, are they really giving the person an opportunity to escape from falling into the pit? God bless.
Quote:
Hi Garya123, the point I was trying to make here is that how can someone say that God is giving everyone an opportunity to be saved when He already knows that they will not be saved?
Quote:
As a parent your duty is to put food before your children to eat but if they refuse because they are too busy with other things they may come to you later between meals for it but it is too late. You will say, I told you to come in eat so don't blame me if you are hungry now.
Well, my mom mother made us eat it anyway Now, this is true, this may be the case, but what I was trying to share is to those who say that God cannot "force" His will on us. I was sharing if a parent saves the child from a busy street and then seeks to teach the child about the danger of his or her actions and if the parent is effective in doing this so that the child learns not to do this , is this wrong? If the child does run out into the street any more, we would say that the parent influenced his or her will effectively. Now, the same is true of God as He influences our will through various ways and it is not wrong for Him to be successful in doing this. Even the hardening of hearts to provoke some to jealousy is not wrong for Him to do, even if someone might say that this violates someones "free will". God is God and He works all according to His own will, even though temporarily we may be able to resist Him. In your example, what you hope to teach the child by not giving him or her the food, maybe that they would come when it is time to eat the next time? God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-30-2011 at 02:32 AM..
I wasn't able to sleep, so here I am Alright, Mike, going back to your initial post, you stated:
Are you saying then, Mike, that God who is said to be love, knew before anyone was ever created/born, that billions and billions of people would make the choice to reject Jesus and He then made this choice a reality for all of these billions and billions of people, having prepared a lake of fire that they will burn in for all of eternity? There is no way then, since He decreed their decision, that they would not burn forever in the lake of fire. If this is true, how then is Jesus said to be their Savior? It goes back to what I asked before.
If someone digs a a pit and they say to a person that is coming upon them, maybe miles away, " I don't want you to fall into the pit" but they know that the person will fall into the pit anyway as they dig the pit. Can you not see the contradiction? Here we have God the Father of all of these souls bringing them into existence, knowing before hand that they will not choose Him, yet bringing them into existence only to burn forever in a lake of fire. It does not correspond to scriptures which tell us that God is the Savior of all men because He never plans to save them. They are doomed from moment they are born and even before they are born, even before they are convicted by the Holy Spirit. You say that God desires for all to be saved and is not willing that any should perish, but at this very moment how many babies are being born to burn for all of eternity with no hope?
I am sorry I will have to disagree. It does not correspond with agape love or the teaching in the scripture that God will have all to be saved, that God is the Savior of all men, that Jesus died for the world.
He does according to this belief, by the mere fact of bringing them into existence.
God bless.
There is no contradiction. God created man with volition. God wants man to come to Him through his own choice in response to the gospel call. If he refuses to come to God the alternative is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. Man has the choice to spend eternity with God or to spend eternity separated from God.
God will not have all men be saved in the sense that He will ignore man's volitional choice in the matter. God desires that all men be saved, but not apart from coming to Him through the gospel. While a person is alive on this earth, he has the opportunity to respond to the gospel. However, each time he rejects the gospel the harder it will be for him to believe it the next time. And there can come a point when that person will be locked into negative volition and unable to respond.
God created man both to bring many sons into glory and to resolve the angelic conflict.
Since volition was involved in Satan's rebellion which began the angelic conflict, man was created by God with volition to resolve the angelic conflict. Those members of the human race who use their God given volition to reject Him will suffer the same punishment as the fallen angels. I went into more detail in an earlier post and so won't go into it again here.
And yes, God created both angel and man knowing that many of them would end up being eternally separated from Him.
Jesus is the Savior of all men in the sense that He died for all men making it possible for all who will trust in Him for salvation to be saved.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-30-2011 at 08:03 AM..
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Alright, Mike, going back to your initial post, you stated:
