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Shana, the 'all' mentioned by Christ (John 12:32) does not refer to every individual, but to men of every nationality and every race. Both Jews and Gentiles are included. Greeks - Gentiles were present (John 12:20) when Jesus said this.
Hi Mike, we will have to disagree on that.
Could you respond to this? Thanks and God bless.
Posted by you :[quote]
Quote:
God desires that all men be saved and is not willing that any should perish.
Posted by me:
Quote:
Mike, do you believe that this verse that you shared, contradicts the belief that God saves them who choose Him, when He knows all things? If He knows that He will only choose those who choose Him, what of the others that He desires to come to a knowledge of the truth? They are consigned to eternal death, when He knew all along that they would not be ones that would choose Him? He knows that all will not come but He desires that they come? It's a contradiction. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-26-2011 at 07:55 PM..
Thanks, Mike. I am not trying to bring in a discussion about unversalism, just asking you to respond to the above post. Thanks and God bless.
Shana, I believe that what I said in post #29 already answers what you were asking about in post #41.
It all has to do with the fact that man's volition is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict and that therefore God will not interfere with that volition as it relates to eternal salvation. I will ask you to refer to that post.
Okay, never mind, Mike. I read the post and it did not address what I asked. Thanks anyway and God bless.
Shana, God does desire that all men be saved, and does not desire that anyone perish. But God gave man volition so that man could choose for or against Him. That is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict. God will not impose His sovereign will on the negative volition of man. God's desire is that all men be saved, but He has to respect the negative volition of those who reject Christ.
Because Lucifer used his volition against God, the issue is what man will do with his volition. Will he come to Christ for salvation, or will he reject God's provision for salvation? Man must accept the consequences of his decision. If he dies never having received God's gift of salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, then he will suffer the same punishment as Satan and his angels
The fact that God desires that all men be saved does not contradict the fact that God has chosen from eternity past those who in time receive Christ as Savior and leaves in condemnation those who don't.
God knew even before He created the angels that Satan would rebel against Him. And He knew that He was going to create man as a result. God created the angels knowing that He would have to sentence the ones who rebelled to the lake of fire, and knowing that He would have to also sentence those members of the human race who rejected His provision for salvation to the same lake of fire as the fallen angels.
Knowing all of this He still chose to create the angels and man with volition. God wants the angels and man to come to Him of their own volition. He does not and will not coerce them.
Okay, thank you, Mike, for sharing your belief. It still seems to be a contradiction if your belief is that God would desire all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth when He already knew that they would never come to Him when He created all things. It is like someone saying, I don't want you to fall into this pit that I made for someone but I already know that you will fall into it as I build this pit. God is love. God bless.
Sorry Mike, but your opinion is only an opinion and not based on any scripture you have referenced.
My first exposure to the doctrine of divine decrees and how election, predestination, God's omniscience and foreknowledge, and man's voliton are all related to the decrees, was from the teaching ministry of Robert B. Thieme JR. who was pastor of Berachah Church of Houston TX. for over 50 years. He had a total of nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew, and graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary. His isagogical, categorical and exegetical teaching of the word of God became a worldwide ministry.
The following study from Pastor William Wenstrom captures what Pastor Thieme taught on the subject.
'One can boast in making the right choice...Where does it state that Hawyaw predestined those that used their volition to respond positively?...Do you even understand what Merit is?...'
But as it was somewhat off the topic of that thread, I decided to reply to it in a new thread. And so to that statement and question, here is my reply.
Merriam-Webster
Definition of MERIT
1 a obsolete: reward or punishment due
b: the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts
c: a praiseworthy quality : virtue
d: character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also: achievement
2: spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits
3 a plural: the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form b: individual significance or justification
One can not boast for trusting in Christ for eternal salvation and is so declared in the word of God.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3] For what does the Scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'' 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as rightousness.'
Abraham was credited with righteousness; declared righteous simply by believing the promise of the Messiah. His faith was not something of which he could boast, for faith is declared not to be works.
In Acts 16:30 the jailer asked what he must do to be saved. 'and after he brought them out, he said, ''Sirs, what must I do to be saved?''
The simple answer to his question was ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...'' (Acts 16:31)
Ephesians 2:8-9 declares faith to be not works and nothing of which man can boast.
Eph 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, that no one should boast.'
To be saved you have to do something. You have to believe on Christ. But believing on Christ is said not to be a work. It is not something for which you can take any credit. Faith is non-meritorious. For it is not the faith itself which saves you, it is the object of your faith which saves you. And Jesus Christ is the object of your faith. It is Jesus Christ who has the merit. Your personal faith in Christ is simply the means by which you accept God's offer of salvation.
All the faith in the world directed toward Allah will not save anyone because there is no Allah. Faith in Zeus will not save you for there is no Zeus.
But Jesus Christ IS real and He CAN save you.
Now can a person CHOOSE to believe on Christ for eternal salvation or CHOOSE not to? Of course, and is so shown in the Scriptures by the fact that salvation is offered. An invitation to come to Christ is given. An invitation can be accepted or it can be rejected.
In what are almost the very last words in the Bible, the invitation to come to Christ for salvation is extended in Revelation 22:17 'And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
That invitation is extended by Jesus in John 7:37 'Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ''If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38] ''He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ''From His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.''
Anyone who wishes can respond to the call of the gospel message by placing his faith in Christ. And from eternity past God in His foreknowledge knew who would respond to the gospel and believe in Christ. And it is these who God predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
God calls and draws through the gospel message.
2 Thess 2:14 'And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Those who hear the gospel are drawn through the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:8 ''And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Can the convicting of the Holy Spirit be resisted? Of course it can.
Acts 7:51 ''You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.''
John 5:40 ''and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
In John 5:40 Jesus referred to those who were unwilling. Yet in John 7:37 Jesus said ''If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.''
God calls through the gospel message. The Holy Spirit convicts at the point of gospel hearing. Man can resist the Holy Spirit, or he can come to Christ through a positive faith response to the gospel. It is his choice.
It is those who God knew would believe on Christ who He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
God does not desire that anyone perish as 2 Peter 3:9 states. Therefore God does not choose for some to be saved while choosing that others be eternally condemned. God desires that all men be saved as 2 Tim 2:4 states.
Therefore, God did everything necessary so that man can be saved. Man need only respond to the invitation, to the offer of salvation by making a personal decision to believe on Christ.
The alternative is the second death which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
It IS the most important choice that every person will ever make.
Salvation from the penalty of eternal death is only granted to an individual who believes and obeys a law that has been added to the law by Jesus' crucifixion.
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