The Gross Misrepresentation of Romans 5:12 (marriage, Earth, Corinthians, witness)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Should be interesting reading for those interested.
What the Bible teaches:
1) There is no such thing as a sin 'nature'
2) We have a human nature that capable of sinning.
3) Human nature did not change after the fall - we are still human.
4) What changed was the relationship to God.
5) God is the source of eternal LIFE.
6) We are contingent beings whose eternal life source is God.
7) That contingency (represented by the Tree of Life) was broken when humanity sinned by choice.
In other words a sin nature was not ADDED to humanity but eternal Life was SUBTRACTED from humanity.
Therefore, death enter the world because of human nature's abiltiy to choose actions that go against God's will and as such humans now are lacking eternal life and are seperated from the Source of Life.
Shiloh, I just wanted to tell you that I read through your entire thread on this topic. I totally agree with you. I like that you asked the question repeatedly, "If Adam had no sin nature, then why did he sin? He did because free will is part of our human nature. He made the choice to sin.
There is ample proof that we are created in God's image, therefore we cannot be born spiritually dead.
Also Jesus said we need to become like little children. He said, "Of such is the kindom of heaven." Now why would Jesus tell us to be like children if they are spiritually dead?
I haven't read the link you posted yet, but I will later. Thank you for being here. Please keep posting. Thank you.
1 Timony 2: 1I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
2for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
3for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
4who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
5for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- " (YLT)
Jesus gave Himself for all, including little babies who are born into the death state if they are born.They cannot prevent themselves from becoming sinners, meaning that they cannot help but become sinners. And if they are not born, they are still in the death state. They are in need of a Savior, who gave Himself for all. God bless.
Hi, if this is true, then why did Adam sin and why did he disobey? Why didn't he make the right choice? Jesus is perfect, although He was tempted. He never sinned and always sought to please the Father. God bless.
Adam sinned because he had the free will to choose, which is built into human nature. He made the choice to disobey God.
If we have a sinful nature, as some suggest, we have no choice but to sin. Jesus had a human nature and chose not to sin.
Saying we have a sin nature gives us an an excuse to sin.
Sin nature cannot be found in scripture. Neither can original sin.
Some say we are born spiritually dead, and they come up with elaborate, not scriptural, explanation to support their doctrine. But I ask this:
Why would Jesus tell us to become as children if children are spiritually dead? Do you see how follish this doctrine is? We are created inGod's image. Don't ever let anyone tell you we're not. And God doesn't create spiritually dead people.
Katie, I believe that if Adam had been created perfect, he would not have made the wrong choice. He would have done the right thing, and would not have chosen to disobey.
Little children are also trusting and willing to be led. They are also moldable, teachable and these are qualities that Jesus wants his followers to have. They have pure motives but eventually they will become sinners because they are mortal, corruptible, born into the death state. This why we sin. They cannot prevent this, so they are born to become sinners and they will evetually die. They cannot help but become sinners. It is inevitable. Jesus has died for all of us. All need a Savior. Jesus, the perfect man, the Son of God, the exact image of God, is the only one who would never sin, but He died for the sins of the world. He will also abolish death one day. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-25-2011 at 05:42 PM..
The point is that Adam had no sin nature, yet he sinned. You are insinuating sin nature was inherited. There not one single scripture that says we "inherit" sin or sin nature.
If you say sin nature makes us sin, then we have no choice but to sin. If thats true then we have no choice to be saved either. Thats what the universalists believe and we both know that is a false doctrine.
You are going to sin until the day you die.
Here is the sin nature as I already showed in Post #107.
The reason that Jesus had to come into the world through a virgin birth was to avoid being born with a sin nature which is passed genetically through the sperm of the male.
The Bible has a number of passages which demonstrate that the sin nature is in the flesh. One of which is Romans 7:14-25
Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15] For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16] But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good, 17] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19] For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20] But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24] Wretched man that I am!. Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25] Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Paul distinquishes between the inner man (the soul) and his body which is a prisoner of the law of sin.
In Romans 6:6 Paul calls the old sin nature 'our body of sin.'
The sin nature cannot be in the soul because the soul is directly created by God and is perfect.
And what you don't seem to be able to understand is that Romans 5:19 says that through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners.
It does not say that each man is made a sinner by his own disobedience but that all men were made sinners by the disobedience of Adam. The only way that all men can be made sinners by the disobedience of Adam is to be born in Adam. That means that man inherits the sin nature of Adam spoken of by Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
There should be no difficulty in understanding this.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-25-2011 at 05:39 PM..
I don't believe that the soul is created perfect. If it is, then it would not die. The scriptures speak of souls dying. I believe that the soul is the person, and it dies when the body dies. The spirit returns to God. God bless.
No. Adam was not made in such a way that he HAD to sin. He was created perfect. God who is perfect can only create what is perfect. Adam was given volition and the opportunity to use that volition by being given a choice to obey or disobey God's command not to eat of the tree.
Adam lost his relationship with God the moment he disobeyed Him. The consequences of sin is death which refers to temporal separation from God in time and eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. It is only because God did something about Adam's fallen condition that Adam's relationship with God could be restored. Jesus Christ came to Adam in the garden after he fell in order to restore the relationship which was broken by Adam' disobedience.
Spiritual death is separation from God in time. Those who die physically without receiving Christ as Savior will be eternally separated from God which is the second death which is eternity in the lake of fire. Physical death resulted from spiritual death. Spiritual death resulted from disobeying God. Because of Adam's didobedience, all men are born into the world already spiritually dead.
You refer to Romans 5:12 and ignore Romans 5:16-21 which plainly states that Adam's disobedience resulted in man being made a sinner. ONE transgression resulted in condemnation to all men.
The many were made sinners not as a result of each man's personal sins, but because of the one transgression of Adam.
Mike, the Bible does not say God created Adam perfect.
Do you believe the Bible that states God created Adam flesh and soulish?
Mike, the Bible does not say God created Adam perfect.
Do you believe the Bible that states God created Adam flesh and soulish?
God who is perfect is incapable of creating anything that is not perfect. Adam as created by God was perfect until he used his volition to disobey God at which time he 'FELL'. He then lost his relationship with God until such time as he believed the promise of the coming Messiah which then put him into an unbreakable eternal relationship with God. He acquired a sin nature at the moment he disobeyed God, and even after his eternal salvation retained his old sin nature.
Adam was created body, soul, and spirit. When he sinned he lost his human spirit which is that part of man by which he relates to God.
The word 'soul' is sometimes used for the whole person, but it is also used as that part of man which is immaterial and separate from both the body and the human spirit.
The Bible reveals that the soul, human spirit, and body are three separate parts of man. The following two passages show this distinction.
1 Thess 5:23 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb 4:12 'For the word of God is alive and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
God requires perfection in those who would have an eternal relationship with Him. Before the fall, Adam's relationship with God was dependant upon obeying God and therefore remaining in his humanly perfect status as he had been created. When he disobeyed God, he died spiritually - his relationship with God had been severed - he lost his human sprit. When he believed God's promise of the Messiah to come he was regenerated. He acquired a human spirit to which God imputed His eternal life and perfect righteousness which qualifed him to spend eternity in the presence of God.
Adam sinned because he had the free will to choose, which is built into human nature. He made the choice to disobey God.
True.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
If we have a sinful nature, as some suggest, we have no choice but to sin.
Because we are descendants of Adam, yes this is true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Jesus had a human nature and chose not to sin.
Being that He was outside the realm of Adam, He did not inherit the sin nature.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
