What about romans 3:20? (Gospel, church, believe, scripture)

[dave737driver]

for no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what His law commands. for the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't doing it. Rom3:20


Is this why it is called our schoolmaster?
Is this the handwriting Paul talked about?
Are these ordinances and not the law as some love to argue?

If I consider 1John3:8, what about 1 John 2:1 But if we do sin, we have an advocate to plead before the father.

there has been much word put forth arguing about the sabbath. did Paul miss something in the gospel? Paul teaches salvation by grace through faith. Is Paul an antinomian?

I'm just a student or diciple, and don't consider myself a bible scholar. have a ways to go on that. when I saw romans 3:20 today, I had to hang this out there.

[Harold Kupp]

Originally Posted by dave737driver

for no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what His law commands. for the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't doing it. Rom3:20


Is this why it is called our schoolmaster?
Is this the handwriting Paul talked about?
Are these ordinances and not the law as some love to argue?

If I consider 1John3:8, what about 1 John 2:1 But if we do sin, we have an advocate to plead before the father.

there has been much word put forth arguing about the sabbath. did Paul miss something in the gospel? Paul teaches salvation by grace through faith. Is Paul an antinomian?

I'm just a student or diciple, and don't consider myself a bible scholar. have a ways to go on that. when I saw romans 3:20 today, I had to hang this out there.

The answer is that Salvation is a process - first we call upon the Lord to be saved (rescued from the power of sin) and then we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The confusion comes from the teachings of modern Christianity that the moment we believe in Jesus the process is complete - i.e. that we are justified - sanctified - glorified the moment we place out trust in Jesus.

The verses in 1 John cannot be understood without seeing the difference between sins of ignorance and willful sin. For a brief study on 1 John 2:1 go here

HK

[ShanaBrown]

for no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what His law commands. for the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't doing it. Rom3:20


Is this why it is called our schoolmaster?

Good points, Dave737driver. God bless.

[DaniMae1]

Originally Posted by dave737driver

for no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what His law commands. for the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't doing it. Rom3:20


Is this why it is called our schoolmaster?
Is this the handwriting Paul talked about?
Are these ordinances and not the law as some love to argue?

If I consider 1John3:8, what about 1 John 2:1 But if we do sin, we have an advocate to plead before the father.

there has been much word put forth arguing about the sabbath. did Paul miss something in the gospel? Paul teaches salvation by grace through faith. Is Paul an antinomian?

I'm just a student or diciple, and don't consider myself a bible scholar. have a ways to go on that. when I saw romans 3:20 today, I had to hang this out there.

Kind of a slap in the face to those who think observing the sabbath is a salvation issue!
This one always bugged me. And the second part of the "schoolmaster" verse says "we are no longer under a schoolmaster"....I was in a church that pounded the first half of that one over and over! But I never once heard the second part from the pulpit. Nice.

Originally Posted by Harold Kupp

The answer is that Salvation is a process - first we call upon the Lord to be saved (rescued from the power of sin) and then we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The confusion comes from the teachings of modern Christianity that the moment we believe in Jesus the process is complete - i.e. that we are justified - sanctified - glorified the moment we place out trust in Jesus.

The verses in 1 John cannot be understood without seeing the difference between sins of ignorance and willful sin. For a brief study on 1 John 2:1 go here

HK

Harold sorry buddy but you need to make your distinctions more clear.

Justification, Regeneration, Glorification, and Santification are not a process. Now depending on how you define Salvation it could or could not be a process depending on the context because it can entail all of the above aspects of Christ's work. You lack basic Bible comprehension in verses in I John and in Phil. 2:12.

In Phil. the point of the verse is that you work-out, not work-for, your salvation, it is used as a farming term regarding the plowing of a field. You already posess salvation and it is from this point that you should live in it and from it with fear and trembling. And in I John, of course you can understand the verses without your eisegetical techniques. John in contrasting verse 7 - 'practices' - is drawing a parallel with the one who practices sin not one who peforms a certain type of sin.

The NET Bible notes on these verse maybe helpful.

The problem of the present tense of ποιεῖ (poiei) here is exactly that of the present tense of ἁμαρτάνει (Jamartanei) in 3:6. Here in 3:9 the distinction is sharply drawn between “the one who practices sin” in 3:8, who is of the devil, and “the one who is fathered by God” in 3:9, who “does not practice sin.” See S. Kubo (“I John 3:9: Absolute or Habitual?” AUSS 7 [1969]: 47-56) for a fuller discussion of the author’s argument as based on a sharp antithesis between the recipients (true Christians) and the opponents (heretics).
sn Does not practice sin. Again, as in 3:6, the author is making a clear distinction between the opponents, who as moral indifferentists downplay the significance of sin in the life of the Christian, and the recipients, who as true Christians recognize the significance of sin because Jesus came to take it away (3:5) and to destroy it as a work of the devil (3:8). This explanation still has to deal with the apparent contradiction between the author’s statements in 2:1-2 and those here in 3:9, but this is best explained in terms of the author’s tendency to present issues in “either/or” terms to bring out the drastic contrast between his readers, whom he regards as true believers, and the opponents, whom he regards as false. In 2:1-2 the author can acknowledge the possibility that a true Christian might on occasion sin, because in this context he wishes to reassure his readers that the statements he has made about the opponents in the preceding context do not apply to them. But in 3:4-10, his concern is to bring out the absolute difference between the opponents and his readers, so he speaks in theoretical terms which do not discuss the possible occasional exception, because to do so would weaken his argument.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by Harold Kupp

The answer is that Salvation is a process - first we call upon the Lord to be saved (rescued from the power of sin) and then we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The confusion comes from the teachings of modern Christianity that the moment we believe in Jesus the process is complete - i.e. that we are justified - sanctified - glorified the moment we place out trust in Jesus.

The verses in 1 John cannot be understood without seeing the difference between sins of ignorance and willful sin. For a brief study on 1 John 2:1 go here

HK

Harold, I see NO process in your theology. One must be perfect after salvation or one falls; one is lost forever. Where is the process in that?

I was taught that we are a triune being as we were formed in the image of God. We are body, soul and spirit. The spirit is that eternal part of us that is dead in sin from our conception, and becomes alive again when we experience the new birth. This eternal spirit is perfected at that moment as we are infused with the Spirit of God. This part of salvation is an instantaeous transformation.

Another part of our salvation is what is labeled in scripture as sanctification. This is the salvation of our souls. Our soul, still the unseen part of our being is best described as our collective mind, will and emotions; our personality is another word that could be linked with soul or the greek word psyche. This part of us is continually being saved. The biblical call to renew our minds by the washing of the water of the word is this process. The growth in faith through trials and tests. The daily call to carry our cross and reckon the old man dead and our spirits alive in Christ. All this, our 'maturing' in Christ, this is sanctifcation -- the daily process of working out our salvation.

The third part of us, our bodies, will not see salvation until we meet him face to face and receive a new body as scripture promises us. Our bodies, affected by the original fall of man, are dying. Once one passes his thrities, the effects of this become all too apparent. We age, our bodies start to fail, we grow weak and old. We are not Benjamin Button. Yet we have the promise of a new body without the plague of the one we are in.

This is why Jesus' miracles of healing are so telling of the eternal aspect of the whole of our salvation. He had power to reverse this decline. He touched people and reversed the death in them. This gift of healing is still carried on by the Holy Spirit, many stories of miraculous healings in the church throughout the ages. However, these are still temporary halts in the overall fact that our bodies are NOT eternal and are in a constant state of decay until they won't work anymore and the spirit of a man goes to meet his maker.

So, salvation is all of the above: an instantaneous experience, a continual experience, and an experience still in the future. A picture of our God "who was, who is and is to come."

[*sherry*]

Good post Dave
Romans talks much about the law...

Such as we do not obey the law because it is the law...
we obey because it is the right thing to do...

our attempt at being righteous...which is clearly stated that NO ONE can be. For we sin...

Someone else mentioned on another post that they thought obeying the commandments was imperative in order to have salvation....

There is only one way....the bible tells us this.

My eyes grow weary from all this debate....just believe...believe with all your being.

Greatest Commandment? Love Him....second greatest? love one another.

I think the scripture you quoted says it all....
Thank you.

Originally Posted by dave737driver

for no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what His law commands. for the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't doing it. Rom3:20


Is this why it is called our schoolmaster?
Is this the handwriting Paul talked about?
Are these ordinances and not the law as some love to argue?

If I consider 1John3:8, what about 1 John 2:1 But if we do sin, we have an advocate to plead before the father.

there has been much word put forth arguing about the sabbath. did Paul miss something in the gospel? Paul teaches salvation by grace through faith. Is Paul an antinomian?

I'm just a student or diciple, and don't consider myself a bible scholar. have a ways to go on that. when I saw romans 3:20 today, I had to hang this out there.

[dave737driver]

I think I saw somewhere on here where a poster said ,"Oh, that handwriting Paul talked about was specifically ordinances and not the law.

I tell you there are some very good debaters.

Harold, if salvation is a process, then at what point is sin no longer ignorant and now just willful full?

like all processes, there must be a point somewhere.

My point is in considering this verse , is well, I have to consider it, and I am a believer in that repentance must accompany confession of sin. Also, I have found that Jesus insisting on repentance as well as Peter,and . this doesn't mean I need to choose to believe it. I see alot where folks say "I believe" as if to suggest that they're convinced now." their teaching is true no matter what I believe. I like how it is referred to as a veil.

although Jesus said he would by no means cast anyone out who calls on him, Matthew 11 would seem to suggest that all those that the father has given him are his. and no one can come to the father except the father draw him nigh. for me personally, when I consider that God was calling me, I was so humbled. as paul says, I know this goodness of God is truly what leads one to repentance.

The Grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.

[little elmer]

The process as I see it (and yes, it will wear us down) is that the law is indeed still a schoolmaster while we lean on the flesh. The tendency to trust is not a natural instinct, and we will try to vindicate ourselves through works.

Sooner rather than later, we (Christians) will fail by design. It is there at that place that grace becomes more real, and the flesh is weakened in our eyes again. Rinse and repeat.

[dave737driver]

when Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak... he knew, he knew. and then to peter." satan wants to sift you as wheat." he just casually kind of frames it out there. these 2 comments give me pause. but yet, he knows that our faith is what keeps our eye on the ball, the focus on him; and only through him can we get out of the boat and walk on water.