The Gross Misrepresentation of Romans 5:12 (Christian, Eve, Savior, eternal)
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Those He predestined, He also called...In other words He ordained them to be called...You lack this understanding and the humility to think that you might be wrong...If one makes a volitional decision for Jeshua, then that is merit...As one man stated long ago, "Let me be chosen for my merit and not for my value"...Let that sink in, Mike...And let me know what you think it means....
No Richard. God ordained that man would have volition. God predestined those who used their volition to respond positively to the gospel message by expressing faith in Christ, to be conformed to the image of His Son. He did not predestined anyone to be saved.
Once again, Ephesians 2:8-9 shows that volition is not meritorius - that no man should boast.
How many folks do you see in the old testament that walked righteous before Hawyaw?...What of Cornelius?...If Jeshua were born without sin, then He would not have to learn to reject evil and choose good, for the sin of rebellion would not be in Him...However, This is what the scriptures states regarding His learning...He was born with all our infirmnities, but, rose above them to be an example to us who are to follow...Stating that He was born without sin, Hawyaw has said in the Old Testament that He will wash one to be as white as snow, even tho one is crimson with sin...And this was to average men...Jews knew how to please Hawyaw, and that was to follow His commands and live a righteous life...Jeshua also knew this and He accomplished it in His life, this is how He was able to bare our sins...They called Him Meshiach, the Annointed One...However, David was also called the Meshiach and several others in the Old Testament, however, the difference between them and Jeshua was that they were not born of a Virgin, Jeshua was, which fulfilled that prophecy to indicate that this was the special One that Hawyaw intended to be THE Meshiach...All the Miracles that Jeshua performed were to validate His authenticity, not to wow people...The Virgin birth was a miracle to fulfill the Prophecy and validate Him...This was the other difference between the Meshiachs of the Old Testament and Jeshua Meshiach, they could not perform miracles...And they did not completely overcome sin...Jeshua did, therefore, He was able to become the perfect atoning Lamb of Hawyaw...
Jesus didn't have sin at birth or anytime there after. He still had to overcome the flesh just as anyone else must but He actually did overcome the flesh and without sin. The Virgin Birth was required so that He wouldn't be under the same curse of original sin. He still would have had to reject evil and choose Good from birth so that He could still qualify as the redeemer.
How do toddlers learn disobedience? Who teaches them?
Christ was born of a virgin, through the Holy Spirit - not through a man and a woman as everyone else is (except Adam and Eve). That's the difference.
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How do toddlers learn disobedience? Who teaches them?
No one has to teach them their own "flesh" demands they respound. We sin because we're in a flesh body [which makes many demands: example: "I'm hungry; feed me!];" not because Adam or our own father sinned.
This young child, this toddler needs to be taught NOT to give in to the demands of his/her flesh. Do they learn it immediately? No, do we?
As long as we are in this flesh body we will sin. After we began to try to follow Christ's example we sin less; but we will never we sinless; in this flesh body. Only One can make that claim.
And I fully understand the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, but she is still considered His eartly mother, and Joseph is considered his 'step' father; if you will.
No Richard. God ordained that man would have volition. God predestined those who used their volition to respond positively to the gospel message by expressing faith in Christ, to be conformed to the image of His Son. He did not predestined anyone to be saved.
Once again, Ephesians 2:8-9 shows that volition is not meritorius - that no man should boast.
One can boast in making the right choice...Where does it state that Hawyaw predestined those that used their volition to respond positively?...Do you even understand what Merit is?...
Yes I know you did Mike. Thanks. But I would like to hear how others answer. I would like you to comment on my other post about the context of Romans 5. I'm still trying to respond to your last post to me. It was a long one. Haven't had a lot of time.
No one has to teach them their own "flesh" demands they respound. We sin because we're in a flesh body [which makes many demands: example: "I'm hungry; feed me!];" not because Adam or our own father sinned.
This young child, this toddler needs to be taught NOT to give in to the demands of his/her flesh. Do they learn it immediately? No, do we?
As long as we are in this flesh body we will sin. After we began to try to follow Christ's example we sin less; but we will never we sinless; in this flesh body. Only One can make that claim.
And I fully understand the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, but she is still considered His eartly mother, and Joseph is considered his 'step' father; if you will.
You've got it right. We sin because we have fleshly desires that we succumb to when tempted. We choose to sin. Sin is a choice. Having fleshly desires does not mean we have a sin nature. We have a human nature. The Bible NEVER EVER says we are born with a sinful nature. This is a vile doctrine of men. If you haven't already read about the gnostics, you should. There is where the doctrine originated. Jesus never taught it and neither did the apostles.
As for Mary....She was no less a sinner than you or I. To say that sin could not be passed from mother to child is as ridiculous as saying it can be passed from father to child. Sin is not something inherited under any circumstance. It is the soul that sin which dies.
Jesus didn't have sin at birth or anytime there after. He still had to overcome the flesh just as anyone else must but He actually did overcome the flesh and without sin. The Virgin Birth was required so that He wouldn't be under the same curse of original sin. He still would have had to reject evil and choose Good from birth so that He could still qualify as the redeemer.
Mary was a sinner. She offered sacrifices for her sins. This doctrine of original sin just gets more and more ridiculous.
Mary was a sinner. She offered sacrifices for her sins. This doctrine of original sin just gets more and more ridiculous.
Yes, she was a sinner. She also need Jesus as a savior. But again Katiemygirl, Romans 5:19 PROVES beyond a doubt that we are sinners due to Adam's disobedience (sin):
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin. SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned. There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
Katie
The Scripture clearly says that a baby born to unbelieving parents are not holy.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. (1 Corinthians 7:14)
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I don't get your point...
