The Gross Misrepresentation of Romans 5:12 (point of view, Commandment, Genesis, universalism)
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I believe sin was ACCOUNTED/IMPUTED to us because we were in Adam at the time he sinned. We are not horrible sinners to begin with when we are born, but given long enough we WILL commit sin, some to a lesser degree from our view than others. The only person born exempt from this was Yeshua/Jesus.
This may seem unjust to some, BUT the rest of the verse says that All will be ACCOUNTED/IMPUTED the righteousness of Yeshua/Jesus. These are the two men that head up ALL PEOPLE. Just as no one is excluded from the accounting of sin through Adam, without ever having sinned before the reckoning, no one is excluded from the accounting of righteousness which comes through Christ.
BUT, just as babies are not born knowing how to be the worst sinner possible, no one is absolutely righteous in experience at the time we are accounted righteous. There is a time period to follow and, for most, the time period to actually learn and become righteous is longer and more difficult than actually becoming a sinner.
Think about babies who die before birth or shortly after. About the question asked recently. Do they just appear in 'heaven' knowing all truth, the difference between good and evil because they died before actually living a life where they would learn all this on earth? Or how about those that we KNOW, without a doubt, were mentally incapable of choosing right from wrong or understanding any part of God's purposes and plans? I believe there are many people we THINK are capable of understanding who are not. What of those people? Is everyone who 'makes it to heaven' perfect in knowledge and practice even though they were not subjected to any of that here on earth at the time of their death. Like the thief on the cross? Is his ability to sin just left out of his resurrected body and thoughts? I suspect many think just that. I believe that for those who did not attain full knowledge of truth and practicing of righteousness in their life, before their death, which includes most of humanity, are resurrected to an age where they will actually LIVE THEIR JUDGMENT, and eventually, learn righteousness while living under those ruling and reigning in Christ's righteousness in the age and perhaps ages to follow. There will certainly be gnashing of teeth and much regret, but when they finally learn, they too will be as righteous as anyone else.
The Bible speaks of at least two ages to follow this one. The millenial kingdom which does speak of death and sin. AT some point, and I believe it will be more than two ages, but that's just me, everyone will have been purified in the 'lake of fire' and made fit for the kingdom of God/heaven and THEN there will be no more death, no more tears, no more sorrow.
But surely, most will not hear this. To most Christians, THIS life is the only 'chance' to accept the 'offer' that Jesus provided through his death, and we are responsible to make the right choice or God who has no other option will have to turn his back on whoever falls into the 'evil' class and either hear their agony and suffering or wipe their memory from His essence and those who loved them and are enjoying life in heaven, for how could you really enjoy your blessed life while someone you live is lost forever? I think I would have a very difficult time with that.
I believe with every fiber of my being that ALL tears, from every face, will be wiped away eventually, and that God's joy will be shared by all. I can't believe the gospel (good news) is that, even though everyone of your family back 20 generations or more, are suffering torment OR at the most merciful, gone from existence, never to be seen or heard from again by those who loved them, you have the opportunity to 'go to heaven' after you die. I see the reconciliaton of ALL in the scriptures and that is what I will base my hope upon.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Mike, do you believe God created Adam flesh and soulish? Please just answer the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
My answer stands as given in post #200.
Mike, if I thought you answered it I would not have asked.
You can't give a simple yes or no answer because if you do your theology on this matter sinks your ship.
You see Mike, if you say "Yes God created Adam flesh and soulish" then you must admit God created Adam in such a way that Adam could not obey or please Him.
If you say "No, I don't believe God created Adam flesh and soulish" then you don't believe what God has said in the Bible. So either way your theological ship is sunk.
Katie, your playing with words here. Where does it say NOT INHERIT? Why do you then quote EZ 18:20? You shouldn't choose one verse over another. God is not contradicting Himself. And we are STILL being created in His image. Part of that creation process requires us to have the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. So God purposed for us to experience and perform that which was evil because He knows Good and Evil:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Katie, why it is your not addressing verse Romans 5:19? It specifically is telling you that we have Adam's sin.
trettep, Romans 5:19 doesn't actually say we have Adam's sin but that we were made or constituted sinners:
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many
were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the
many shall be constituted just."
Romans 5:12 says how it is we were made sinners . . . it is because death passed through into all mankind and for that, all sin.
Where does it say INHERIT?
You cannot inherit sin, period. Do you deny what Ez. 18:20 says? Yes or no? You are wantonly ignoring two very basic ideas in scripture. 1. We are created in God's image. 2. God cannot create anything that is bad. Do you deny that we are created in His image? Yes or no?
I have already read and addressed your take on this in previous posts. The majority of what you say is pure speculation and not Biblical. If Romans 5:19 means we all inherit sin from Adam, the you need to apply the same logic that all are saved through Christ. And that is a false doctrine.
We need to move on. Believe what you will. Nothing I can say will matter, so I won't waste my time.
It is the sin nature which is inherited. Adam's original sin is imputed to the genetically acquired sin nature.
Nothing about it is speculative. It is clearly presented in scripture.
And I have already told you once that the second half of Romans 5:18 applies only to those who receive Christ as Savior. It is potential. Christ died for all men so that those who believe in Christ can be made righteous. But All men are sinners because all men are born in Adam.
Deny the truth if you will. Your denial of the truth does not nullify it. But for those who will listen, you are refuted by the scriptures themselves.
Katie, your playing with words here. Where does it say NOT INHERIT? Why do you then quote EZ 18:20? You shouldn't choose one verse over another. God is not contradicting Himself. And we are STILL being created in His image. Part of that creation process requires us to have the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. So God purposed for us to experience and perform that which was evil because He knows Good and Evil:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Katie, why it is your not addressing verse Romans 5:19? It specifically is telling you that we have Adam's sin.
Actually Trettep, I have explained this verse in more than one post. You just choose not to listen to anything that doesn't agree with your interpretation. You believe that we inherit sin from Adam. You seem to hang your hat on this one single verse. Where is the rest of your proof?
However, when one takes into consideration the whole counsel of God, it is clear that you are interpreting this verse incorrectly.
You deny that we are created in God's image, and you deny that God cannot create anything that is not good. Why won't you address this?
I've also pointed out to you that if all inherit Adam's sin, then all inherit salvation. Of course, this is a false doctrine. The Bible clearly says some will be saved, and others will be lost. We cannot inherit sin anymore than we can inherit salvation.
This thread is about Romans 5:12, which says death passed to all men because all have sinned. It does not say that sin passes to all men because Adam sinned.
Romans 5:18-19 Paul is simply saying that death was introduced into the world by Adam, just as life was brought into the world by Christ, who is life.
Note once more the words of the prophet Ezekiel:
The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. [Ezekiel: 18:20]
It is impossible to inherit sin.
Now Trettep, I don't expect you to accept my explanation. All I can say is, believe what you will. There is nothing more I can say on the matter. I believe you are wrong. You believe the same about me. Time to move on.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Mike, do you believe God created Adam flesh and soulish? Please just answer the question.
Mike, if I thought you answered it I would not have asked.
You can't give a simple yes or no answer because if you do your theology on this matter sinks your ship.
You see Mike, if you say "Yes God created Adam flesh and soulish" then you must admit God created Adam in such a way that Adam could not obey or please Him.
If you say "No, I don't believe God created Adam flesh and soulish" then you don't believe what God has said in the Bible. So either way your theological ship is sunk.
My answer stands as is. Readers can refer to post #200 to see it.
Romans 5:12, which says death passed to all men because all have sinned. It does not say that sin passes to all men because Adam sinned
I believe that the original language/construct in the scripture was "death passed to all men on which all have sinned."
"The Greek phrase used is eph' ho. Eph', or epi, means "on, upon, or over." Even English dictionaries give this meaning, because so many of our words beginning with "epi" are of Greek origin. The Greek word, Ho, means "which." The phrase "on which" or "over which" denotes a consequence or result to follow." Dr. Stephen Jones reference. God's Kingdom Ministry - Creation's Jubilee
It might be good to study this but I believe that we sin because we are in the death state or because we are mortal. We are mortal because of Adam's disobedience and constituted as sinners as Eusebius shared.
Quote:
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many
were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the
many shall be constituted just."
Romans 5:12 says how it is we were made sinners . . . it is because death passed through into all mankind and for that, all sin.
It is the sin nature which is inherited. Adam's original sin is imputed to the genetically acquired sin nature.
Nothing about it is speculative. It is clearly presented in scripture.
And I have already told you once that the second half of Romans 5:18 applies only to those who receive Christ as Savior. It is potential. Christ died for all men so that those who believe in Christ can be made righteous. But All men are sinners because all men are born in Adam.
Deny the truth if you will. Your denial of the truth does not nullify it. But for those who will listen, you are refuted by the scriptures themselves.
How can you say that "sin nature" is clearly presented in scripture when you can't find the term anywhere in the Bible? LOL
No Mike, whatever logic you apply to one half of the passage, you MUST apply to the other. You can't just make up rules of interpretation to suit your doctrine, to make everything fit nice and neat.
I don't have to deny what the scriptures say. We are created in God's image, and God cannot create anything that is not good. It's that simple.
Why would Jesus tell us to become like little children if little children are BAD?
Each of us has a choice. You choose to believe God created us bad, that's your decision. I choose to believe He created every single human being good.
Sin is a choice. We do not sin because we are bad. We sin because we want to.
All one needs to do is to read what you wrote in an earlier post of how we inherit sin nature, physically through our genes, to know that you are spouting nothing but hogwash. I'd like for you to identify the sin gene if you would. Tell us all what is the genetic marker for sin. I'm sure everyone would just love to know.
I believe that the original language/construct in the scripture was "death passed to all men on which all have sinned."
"The Greek phrase used is eph' ho. Eph', or epi, means "on, upon, or over." Even English dictionaries give this meaning, because so many of our words beginning with "epi" are of Greek origin. The Greek word, Ho, means "which." The phrase "on which" or "over which" denotes a consequence or result to follow." Dr. Stephen Jones reference. God's Kingdom Ministry - Creation's Jubilee
It might be good to study this but I believe that we sin because we are in the death state or because we are mortal. We are mortal because of Adam's disobedience and constituted as sinners as Eusebius shared.
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many
were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the
many shall be constituted just."
God bless.
Well, at least you are not saying we inherit sin. Thank God for that!
Katie
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