Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The only answer, (aside from some type of claim of special personal revelation), is to support your views with some type of witness.
a christian who believes in God, (the God of the bible) can therefore turn to the Bible to seek and find the answers from it, as it is a witness.
However if a person rejects the christian God of the bible yet then turns around and seem to then claim to know about something dealing with the afterlife, I got to ask, "How?"
If a person rejects the Bible , then by what other witness do they use to support their views?
EXAMPLE:
To claim that in the after life I know for a fact that we all have to drive very small cars on the left side of the road, is a rather interesting claim for me to make.
I would expect someone to want to know by what authority I would make such a claim of after life knowledge?
Where is my witness to such a fact?
Where is my support found?
Who else thinks this way also?
Who came up with this idea?
If I say i dont believe in the Bible, yet say all that I believe is true of the Christian God, where else would I be able to point to to back-up my views?
Rejecting the Bible, and then attempting to quote it to support my views is hypocritical .
The only answer, (aside from some type of claim of special personal revelation), is to support your views with some type of witness.
a christian who believes in God, (the God of the bible) can therefore turn to the Bible to seek and find the answers from it, as it is a witness.
However if a person rejects the christian God of the bible, yet then turns around and seem to then claim to know about something dealing with the afterlife, i got to ask, "How?"
If a person rejects the Bible , then by what other witness do they use to support their views.
EXAMPLE:
To claim that in the after life I know for a fact that we all have to drive very small cars on the left side of the road, is a rather interesting claim for me to make.
I would expect someone to want to know by what authority I would make such a claim of after life knowledge?
Where is my witness to such a fact?
Where is my support found?
Who else thinks this way also?
Who came up with this idea?
If I say i dont believe in the Bible, yet say all that I believe is true of the Christian God, where else would I be able to point to to back-up my views?
Rejecting the Bible, and then attempting to quote it to support my views is hypocritical .
Actually, I just noticed that I misread the person you were quoting, so your other post makes more sense now. My apologies.
Like a little bird I saw hatched near where I work, it was born without a wing...is that fair?
While it may live for a time, in the end it will freeze to death alone out on the lake ice....(as many birds do each winter who cant make the trip South...)
It isn't fair. Yet, if "god" exists, "god" permits it.
If god isn't fair, then god isn't good. That should be obvious by definition.
If god isn't good, why call him god?
That's pretty much the same paradox that Epicurus raised 2200 years ago. No theist has ever been able to answer it in anything that sounds like human reason.
Most theists, instead, make excuses for their god the way a long-suffering and embarrassed spouse makes excuses for why their drunken partner didn't show up for work.
Well if the atheists are wrong and there is a heaven and a hell. If they go to hell for their beliefs I am sure that Satan (if he exists) will welcome them with open arms and treat them like royalty. Being and atheist isnt a sin. No where in the Ten commandments says that those that just dont believe are sinning.
But I do not believe in the bible, god, or Jesus. It just doesnt make sense. If he does exist then he needs to prove it. I am sorry, but I can not be expected to believe something that can not be proven. It cannot be weighed, measured, or studied accurately.
The only answer, (aside from some type of claim of special personal revelation), is to support your views with some type of witness.
a christian who believes in God, (the God of the bible) can therefore turn to the Bible to seek and find the answers from it, as it is a witness.
First, understand I normally don't feel comfortable speaking about these things with outsiders (most NDN people aren't and we have our reasons). But to make my point and hopefully so people will understand some things, I will go outside my comfort zone. Know also that I am no holy man, elder or anything like that...I'm just one of the people. I don't want anyone thinking I am.
You speak of witnesses. Our people had witnesses. But our stories are oral rather than written. I'll give two examples of these stories. There were two men spoke of their mother and grandmother (respectively) dying, visiting the after world, but came back. The first man said:
My mother died from a fever. A grey horse was waiting for her. She got on and rode away. After a while she came upon a trail. Many Comanches had passed that way. She came to the top of a high hill. Below her she saw a big camp in a grove of tall trees by a clear creek. The land looked so beautiful. Lots of Comanches rode around on horseback. There were women playing old-time games. Two men on horseback left the group and began to race toward her.As they came, she was thirsty and got down to drink from a near-by spring. Scooping up the water, she splashed some on her face. It felt cool. Then she came to. They gave her food and was; she felt better, got well, and lived a long time.
The other man said:
When my grandmother was young she got very sick. A holy man worked on her, but he could accomplish nothing. Her time had come. So she died. People began mourning. They buried her possessions. She started walking toward the other world. At last she came towards a creek bordered with tall trees in which was a big camp. Just before she got to the camp. she looked ahead and saw a large herd of horses. as she came closer to the horse, she saw a man approach her on horseback. As he came nearer, she saw he was a relative long since died. The she noticed a grey horse. The relative roped it for her and told her to mount and hurry to get on, as they had to get along. She tried to mount the horse, but it balked. The man kept urging her to hurry, but the horse kept balking and balking. She couldn't get there. Finally, she came to while trying to get on the horse. She opened her eyes. She saw people weeping for her. She told them she came back, She was alive again. She lived a long life after that.
These are two independent accounts. There are other such stories of Comanche who passed, saw the afterlife, then came back. The description of the afterlife they gave is consistent and what the elders tell are based on what witnesses such as these saw. They didn't just make it up. We have all kinds of stories that speak of other spiritual matters as well, just like you do.
This is no different than the stories in your bible that are based on what witnesses saw. Now I am sure that you don't believe in our stories and traditions. Maybe you think that the women who came back to life probably never died in the first place. Maybe you think that it was some trick of your devil.
But the question then is, what makes your witnesses and the stories they told have anymore veracity or credence than the witnesses and stories of my people? Why should I believe in your stories anymore than you believe in mine? Neither of us have anyone now who can validate these stories. I can no more talk with these two men than you can talk to Peter, John or Mary Magdalene (and these two stories are from a much more recent past than yours - late 19th century vs 1st century CE). Remember too, that your stories were oral at one time as well and written down much later.
Last edited by Fullback32; 08-22-2009 at 11:50 PM..
Well if the atheists are wrong and there is a heaven and a hell. If they go to hell for their beliefs I am sure that Satan (if he exists) will welcome them with open arms and treat them like royalty.
I've often thought of this point myself. I certainly don't believe in a being called Satan; I think it's ridiculous. But isn't what we call heaven or hell subjective anyway?
If you took a Baptist farmer from Kansas around, say, 1890, and placed him in a modern teenager's room with crazy black lights, Ozzy Osbourne posters (okay, I'm dating myself) and blaring music, wouldn't he conclude he was in hell? To the teenager, that may be paradise itself.
I recall watching a tv show on NDEs (near death experiences) quite some time ago. On the show each person experienced something that fell in line with their beliefs, no matter what those beliefs were.
I'm not saying I buy any of that as proof of anything, but it was interesting to see how it worked.
It is quite obvious that the God created in the Bible is of man's own image and not the other way around [see jealous fits of rage, etc].
God was created by men in the Bible so they made sure that they held the top priority while women remained second class.
If God was all omnipotent then God would already know who is going to hell and heaven. And if you say..."that is why God gave man free-will".
That is a knee-jerk answer that you have been taught and it does not answer the question, because God would still be omnipotent and would still know even if you had free-will if you were going to hell or not. So why play the game ?
There is no soul. There is a mind and that mind controls all of your thoughts and your behaviors. Even the thought that makes you think you have a soul is controlled by your mind. If you can learn how to meditate and take control over your mind's endless chatter of thoughts then you will be on a path to a better life.
It isn't fair. Yet, if "god" exists, "god" permits it.
If god isn't fair, then god isn't good. That should be obvious by definition.
If god isn't good, why call him god?
The answer is - that we are not like God...
We dont think like Him.
We dont judge things as he does.
We dont look at this life in the same manner he does.
The idea that we are not the same as God fills the text of the bible.
When questioned about His actions by Job, God answers in a manner that is not what we would want.
God's answers just dont allow us to add everything up and it all come out with a sum total that is fair.
The final answer we are left with is "faith"
To trust without fully knowing,
To trust the person of God, because you know a few things about Him.
We call God as being "good" only because he calls himself that, and knowing all along that we lack a point of view that is sufficient to judge God on our own.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
***
