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This is an excellent response, and very similar to what my experience has been. I think we all "experience" God or not in our own way. I don't hear or see God, but "feel" the presence of God. I have been blessed to live in rural areas where quiet and beautiful places exist, the kind of places that I think God would favor. Someone told me once that they were not sure if God existed, and I explained how I "knew", say you are out walking in nature, and you feel a peaceful presence, that is how I know God exists. I hear/feel God through my heart and soul.
I don't think we find God, I think God finds us, when we least expect it.
I don't disagree at all with this or with Thoreau's post to which you're responding, but the OP refers to "manifestations" and "signs." The sort of "inner knowing" that we as Christians may experience is important to us, but how does it differ from the inner knowing of a Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim - or the "inner not knowing," I suppose, of an atheist? Almost everyone I've known describes moments of profound awe at the wonders of nature or the cosmos, but this simply doesn't have anything per se to do with God.
I try to make communion with God a major focus of my Christian walk, but I can't honestly say that there is any objective element to this communion. If I weren't an atheist, what I experience as the "quiet voice of the Spirit" might well be chalked up simply to the fruits of meditation or a conversation with my own subconscious. If I were a Hindu, it might be viewed as communion with Brahma. It's the context that I am in fact a Christian that causes me to characterize it as the voice of the Spirit. That I regard this as a manifestation of the God of Christianity is pretty much irrelevant and non-evidential to the OP and everyone else. Mystic's experience, compelling as it was to him, doesn't mean squat to me.
I do think it's important to be able to articulate what we believe to be objective manifestations of God in our lives. It's these manifestations that give substance and reality to my Christian beliefs - much more so, I would have to say, than the inner experience of communion. If I couldn't articulate any, I would have to question the reality of my beliefs. On the other hand, I have to be wary of viewing as divine manifestations occurrences that are just as easily (or more easily) explainable in mundane terms.
As I said, I can only describe these manifestations and let others do with them what they will - which, in most cases, will be to filter them through what they already believe and then either accept or reject them on that basis. Someone for whom the Ten Truths of Scientism is the gospel is obviously going to reject them - not necessarily reject that they occurred more or less as described but that they are in any way manifestations of God. It's a foregone conclusion.
The more interesting question to me is why atheists, Hindus, Muslims and Scientologists all experience pretty much the full panoply of such manifestations - which they definitely do. Hindu and Muslim miracles are as prevalent and jaw-dropping as Christian ones. Hence, I don't claim that what I have experienced are uniquely manifestations of the God of Christianity. I view them as such in context - i.e., because I have concluded for a variety of other reasons that Christianity is the closest approximation of the truth. When they occur to an atheist or Muslim, I accept that they are manifestations of the divine reality but that the context in which the atheist or Muslim views them is (in my opinion) incorrect.
Easy now. No angry man is rebuking anyone. Please stop reading into my words.
I'm simply asking the question. Why do people think that God should show them a sign when he's clearly said that even if he did they wouldn't believe?
Because they know damn well that with a sufficiently unequivocal and compelling sign they WOULD believe. They may misunderstand why this would be contrary to God's plan for humanity, but they know that with a sufficiently unequivocal and compelling sign they WOULD believe. A direct witness to the resurrected Jesus WOULD believe. The biblical accounts of the Resurrection are not the same thing. Your statements make sense only from a hyper-Calvinist perspective - i.e., God's predestined elect WILL believe because God has decreed it, while the non-elect won't believe no matter what evidence is presented because God has predestined that they won't.
I don't believe you're likely to get anything resembling a convincing answer.
Most responses are likely to be what I might call "one off" responses. "I prayed for X and X happened. It was a miracle." "X appeared to me in a vision. It was from God." "I saw an angel lift my child from a burning car." Etc., etc., yada yada. These are convincing only to the people to whom they happened. There are too many mundane alternative possibilities, from pure coincidence to mental illness on the part of the experiencer and everything in between.
I've had a number of "one off" anomalous experiences that are inconsistent with the materialistic paradigm. Several had objective aspects that weren't within my control - i.e., I didn't produce them (unless my mind is capable of doing things inconsistent with the materialistic paradigm). In every case, I tried to dispassionately evaluate my own mental state and circumstances and consider possible mundane explanations. (In one recent case, I did arrive at an odd but mundane explanation.) My extensive studies have confirmed that my anomalous experiences are all of types that tens or hundreds of thousands of other sane and credible people have reported. Ergo, they are one key body of evidence that convinces me the materialistic paradigm is simply false and that consciousness survives death. However, I don't interpret any of them as a sign from God per se.
As I've stated elsewhere, the incidents where I have genuinely sensed divine intervention were complex and multi-faceted and all occurred at potentially critical junctures of my life. Even with these, however, they have a "you had to be there" quality that renders them unlikely to be convincing to anyone else. I'll give you one example that will probably just seem tedious.
When I was 42, I walked away from my teaching career to join a highly successful, world-famous ministry built around one charismatic leader. Its emphasis was on the mentally and physically disabled. My wife and I thought it was a genuine calling from God. We sold, at a very substantial loss, everything we had, bought an old van to help ferry the disabled, and moved onto the campus of this ministry. I had been recruited as the future president but we chose to spend a year at a very menial level of service so we would have credibility with the others as well as a better understanding of the ministry. I quickly realized the ministry was a fraud and was victimizing those it was supposed to be helping. After about three months, I wrote a long and gentle-but-blunt memo to the leader with my observations and suggestions. The very next day, he had two thugs evict us from the premises. I literally fought them off with a baseball bat and filed a criminal complaint.
My wife and I sat in our old van wondering what the hell had just happened. We had virtually nothing but that van. Far from a calling by God, the ministry now seemed like a descent into hell. Purely on a whim, we pointed the van at a distant town where I had once worked and were thrilled when my wife quickly found a minimum-wage job at a 7-11. I wrote a long letter back to the leader of the ministry. Yes, you ruined my life, I told him, but your day will come. There will be a reckoning for evil like yours. A few months later, I felt like an OT prophet. The memo I had written to him was taken to the board of directors by another guy in whom I had confided. To everyone's astonishment, the board ousted the leader and his entire family from the ministry they had created. Now, and for many years since the ouster, the ministry is what it always should have been and is highly respected for all the right reasons. It suddenly made sense that we really had been called by God, but not for the reasons we had thought. We had been called because I had the strength of character to expose the fraud.
"But what about me, God?" I wondered. I contacted an old boss who had become kind of a friend - the work had nothing to do with teaching - but he said he had nothing and I started cranking out applications for anything and everything. A couple of days later, he called me back - actually, the company could use my research and writing skills on a huge project. He asked what it would take for me to work as a consultant. I said, "Oh, $15 an hour?" He laughed and said, "Well, I already have approval for $125, so we'll go with that." I spent the next five months minting money. Then the project was drawing to a close. I started visiting the library and looking at Dallas-area newspapers for teaching openings. One day, I saw a possibility and called. The person doing the hiring "just happened" to be an old classmate I had barely known. "Oh, you don't even have to interview," she said. "Just come on back." I called the builder of the home we had sold and asked if they had any unsold inventory. "Yeah, we have one exactly like yours the next street over, except it has a fireplace in the corner of the living room," he said. I bought it by fax, sight unseen. I won't bore you with all the weird ways that things just happened to fall into place, but it was jaw-dropping. In less than a year from first thinking God had called us to the ministry from hell, we were fully restored with a new home, new furniture, a new car and money in the bank.
Not persuasive to anyone else, I realize, but this is one of at least four such experiences at genuinely critical junctures of my life where it truly seemed to me that a protective divine hand was involved. What occurred was a sequence of events just too unlikely to chalk up to luck. Some even involved anomalous aspects. These complex sequences of events are my "signs from God."
Why do others not experience such things, why are others not blessed as I seem to have been? I have no idea, nor do I really care. You are, it seems to me, a lost soul. I doubt you would recognize a sign from God if it bit you on the ass. Neither I nor anyone else really has anything to offer you. What you will discover - or not, as the case may be - is within yourself and between you and the universe. You aren't sincerely looking for "signs" here, and you and everyone else knows it.
Wow! I am usually able to go back and respond to all comments posted in threads I start, but I see in this one so many. I read through all the comments and see that even a good many more were deleted from this thread. Including mine! For the life of me I can't recall what they were, but even after all those were deleted, "my cup runneth over" for all the others that remain here. Though I am not optimistic I can respond as I would like to most of the comments posted in this thread, I'll start with this one, because upon reading it up until the end, I was most impressed. For someone who seems to have the attitude expressed at the end, I appreciate all the time and effort it took to pass along this rather interesting personal story of yours. My compliments as well for actually providing the sort of information I asked for. Even if you think me insincere. You are wrong about that, but no matter.
As I read at the start of your story what you and your wife did, I really can't imagine. I can't imagine what convinced you to make such a radical change in your life. To follow "one charismatic leader." Another story that demonstrates just what an influence others can be on our life path and the psychology involved. I do have a difficult time relating to the story, but not because I am an atheist and of course I don't need to relate to any of these stories. I'm just interested to know how others have interpreted these "signs" or experiences in more of a spiritual manner than I tend to interpret them.
What I CAN very well relate to is the experience of going from "high on the mountain top" to the depths of despair and then back on top again. After a good many years of suffering that included clinical depression. I won't get into that story, because it isn't an example of what I consider any kind of paranormal or supernatural occurrence, but I can easily see how my experience COULD be considered something caused by "the hand of providence" much the way you feel about your experience. Why don't I? Again I tend to think it has to do with how we are all different psychologically speaking. Just for starters.
Astounding to me as well is how or why you would suggest $15/hour to work as a consultant when I would think given your intelligence and expertise you would know better than that. Let alone your need for money. There is a good deal about your story I find interesting if not astounding. Good for you for outing the charismatic leader who turned out to be a fraud too, and all it took to do that. Bravo! I believe every word of your story, and again I thank you for sharing it here. Too bad you always have a way of describing what you and "everyone else" knows about me in such a negative way. You are wrong about me and a good many things but for purposes of this thread, no matter.
Thanks for your contribution and additional comments too.
I've had a few experiences in life, but I chalk most of them up to natural intuition at play. I don't necessarily count that as "a sign from God", because we were raised that paying attention to intuition or psychics or anything that didn't come from the Bible was WRONG. Only much later, when a therapist said, "you know, some of your "stuff" (meaning OCD intrusive thoughts) might be a result of not paying attention to your natural intuition due to your religious upbringing" did I begin to allow myself to explore and exercise my intuitive abilities further.
I did have a strange but pleasant moment a few years ago that I mentioned on here before.
There is a patch of woods at the end of the park across the street from where I live. I was out walking one afternoon, and as I passed the woods, the afternoon sun was just filtering so beautifully through the trees that I had to stop. I entered the edge of the woods and just stood there, enjoying the moment, and I "heard" a voice in my head that said "Step forward". It was different than my own thought, though not an audible voice, but the words were very clear in my brain. I stepped forward, and when I did, I could see this beautiful mini meadow full of purple flowers that was not visible to me until I took the step. It felt like a gift, but from whom, I would not be able to say. There might have been a time when I would have said God, though.
I've also experienced what appears to be a couple of messages from <drumroll> "the other side", in particular since March when my fiance died. I wrote about them on the Pagan forum, where I knew such discussions would be better received without idiotic remarks about demons and whatnot.
I'm not sure what I would think if I started hearing voices, but at least yours seemed to be guiding you in a good direction. Thanks for the image upon taking that step!
IMHO, a miracle is that which you cannot do yourself or for yourself. Which may explain why miracle workers cannot "heal" themselves. They can only be a conduit for the benefit of another. In other words, we are the hands and feet of God. When we're inspired to do random acts of kindness, we're a miracle to others.
That's a good sign.
From where does this opinion or understanding about miracle workers come I wonder. Most of what I know about miracle workers is that they are not actually miracle workers at all. Not in terms of the following definition anyway...
Miracle: a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
My brother and I both saw a man get on the elevator. We both experienced the fact that there was no one on the elevator besides us. So when I asked him if we hadn't seen a man get on the elevator and yet the man wasn't there, his reply was only natural. He didn't doubt that we had seen a man get on the elevator, it was just his way of expressing that he did see the man get on. He later told the event to others in our family. We didn't see the man disappear, we simply saw that he wasn't there when we got on.
Your reaction to my story is only natural and I have said before that my experience is meaningful only to myself, and my brother, because I can't prove that it happened. But it did happen just as I described. You asked for experiences and that is mine. I do not expect you to believe it. I merely state that it did. And it cannot be debunked, only not believed by those who can't accept that it could happen.
Strange...
I don't think I have ever personally heard such a story told by anyone. My reaction to your story is the same as it is with all stories that defy explanation, but clearly you and your brother believe you witnessed the disappearance of a man just like that. Again, I'm not sure how I would handle such an experience, but so far I've not had any such experience or anything close.
I have had the experience of seeing my money disappear in a casino or two. Somewhat inexplicably, but other than that, nothing close.
I really don't think he sends "signs". That's too Bible-esc. What I encounter is deep communications and signals from within. They aren't glaring or profound, but soft and almost whispering, though in no way audible.
One certainly has to be in the right state of mind and spirit to pick up on these signals. One has to cast of specific expectations, and leave an "empty plate or mirror". Then wait, without a timeline and without pushing and pulling. It's a release for matters to happen as the the higher power / God chooses, not us.
But this is all unique and personal. There's no way for one person to say how it might operate with someone else. So, instead of trying to get answers from others, find the answers yourself from within.
I have to take exception to these suggestions that one needs to be in a "right state of mind" or however else one might suggest we "tune in" to pick up these signals. If that is the case, again I am tempted to understand what that entails psychologically speaking. Otherwise, I can only consider how it was for me when I WAS picking up these signals much as you describe and then later no longer able. I know of no difference between those years when I could and the years later when I could not that has anything to do with different expectations of any sort. Only the beginning of questioning whether that soft almost whispering signal was actually divine in nature. When I was able to hear such things, I already believed in God. There was no questioning.
Glad you started this thread, LM! Like you, I'm looking forward to reading about others experiences.
My first experience happened in May 1984. I was 26, a brand new mother, and had absolutely nothing to do with the RCC or any other religion back then. Yes, I believed God existed, but that's about it.
Anyway, I had been working for a company for about a year. One day, our entire hierarchy changed. People were quitting left and right because of new upper management. In fact, we had six department heads quit on the same day. My new boss called me in to the conference room and told me she was going to give me my annual review...which I already had the previous month. At first, I was confused. But when I read the review form, I was p*ssed! It was ALL untrue! But of course, with my upbringing, I wasn't 'allowed' to show my anger. So, I proceeded to go back to my office...and have a full-blown panic attack. I went to my new manager struggling to hide my tears/anger and told her that I had to leave because I wasn't feeling well (understatement). I drove home which thankfully, was only a few blocks away.
I got in the house and crawled on the bed into the fetal position. I felt certain I was going to die. But that's not what scared me. What scared me was the possibility of me dying...and going to hell. I felt small and insignificant to God. Through my tears, I humbly asked Him, "Do you love me? Was I even allowed to ask that question of God?
I suddenly sat up, still sniffling...and felt this amazing 'warmth'. But it wasn't a physical warmth. It was as if this 'wave' of something was washing over me. I had this tremendous sense of peace...and joy...and pure LOVE. Or should I say, PURE Love. It wasn't the kind of love that's familiar to us, like romantic love or love of a child or family and friends. This was something different. It was a THOUSAND times better than any other kind of love I felt before. But that's not what got me. What got me was that there was NO FEAR. No fear of dying...no fear of losing my job, or not being able to pay my bills...It was an experience of overwhelming joy and happiness.
That 'feeling' stayed with me for four days. Of course, I went right back to my 'old' life. Oh, I DID get fired from that company a week later. They fought me on unemployment...and I WON.
Like I mentioned, it was my FIRST experience, almost 40 years ago.
But certainly wasn't the last...
Last edited by Mink57; 12-07-2023 at 08:56 AM..
Reason: corrected from 20 years ago to 40 years ago
What would be interesting would be if you had a similar thread directed at atheists.
I have lots of personal stories that I'm sure if I were a believer could very well be taken as evidence for god. Some good stories and some really terrible stories. I've shared them before I think many years ago.
I completely understand why some people interpret their experiences as evidence of god.
Sometimes it seems like the evidence is just too much of a coincidence, and I get that.
Other atheists have unexplained incidences in their lives, same as theists. I know this from personal experience of the atheists around me that have had similar experiences to mine.
I might share my stories again if I'm feeling brave enough. I've seen people ripped apart on here when they share personal stuff, so I'll have to think about it. They are very personal and heartfelt to me and stuff I havent talked about for a long time.
Anyway apart from the personal experiences there is also just the incredible stuff that happens in nature everyday. I started a thread about this once. Things that are very hard to explain away and make you think twice.
I really should be a theist. I often think I get more out of my view on life than some theists do. But I'm not. And that's just the way it is.
Truth be told, I first started this thread in the Atheism and Agnosticism thread, by accident. I quickly realized that I would be far more likely to get what I was hoping for in this forum rather than in a forum of fellow atheists. So I quickly deleted it from that forum and started it here instead. Most atheists don't seem to have much in the way of these stories that they believe are "signs from God." If they did, they wouldn't be atheists I don't think.
Wow! I am usually able to go back and respond to all comments posted in threads I start, but I see in this one so many. I read through all the comments and see that even a good many more were deleted from this thread. Including mine! For the life of me I can't recall what they were, but even after all those were deleted, "my cup runneth over" for all the others that remain here. Though I am not optimistic I can respond as I would like to most of the comments posted in this thread, I'll start with this one, because upon reading it up until the end, I was most impressed. For someone who seems to have the attitude expressed at the end, I appreciate all the time and effort it took to pass along this rather interesting personal story of yours. My compliments as well for actually providing the sort of information I asked for. Even if you think me insincere. You are wrong about that, but no matter.
As I read at the start of your story what you and your wife did, I really can't imagine. I can't imagine what convinced you to make such a radical change in your life. To follow "one charismatic leader." Another story that demonstrates just what an influence others can be on our life path and the psychology involved. I do have a difficult time relating to the story, but not because I am an atheist and of course I don't need to relate to any of these stories. I'm just interested to know how others have interpreted these "signs" or experiences in more of a spiritual manner than I tend to interpret them.
What I CAN very well relate to is the experience of going from "high on the mountain top" to the depths of despair and then back on top again. After a good many years of suffering that included clinical depression. I won't get into that story, because it isn't an example of what I consider any kind of paranormal or supernatural occurrence, but I can easily see how my experience COULD be considered something caused by "the hand of providence" much the way you feel about your experience. Why don't I? Again I tend to think it has to do with how we are all different psychologically speaking. Just for starters.
Astounding to me as well is how or why you would suggest $15/hour to work as a consultant when I would think given your intelligence and expertise you would know better than that. Let alone your need for money. There is a good deal about your story I find interesting if not astounding. Good for you for outing the charismatic leader who turned out to be a fraud too, and all it took to do that. Bravo! I believe every word of your story, and again I thank you for sharing it here. Too bad you always have a way of describing what you and "everyone else" knows about me in such a negative way. You are wrong about me and a good many things but for purposes of this thread, no matter.
Thanks for your contribution and additional comments too.
Sincerely,
LM
When folks are in the situation we were in, $15 an hour can be a godsend. As I stated, we were thrilled when my wife found work as a cashier at 7-11 for whatever the minimum wage was then. If my old boss had said "We can't go higher than $10," I would've leaped at it. Bear in mind, this was nearly 30 years ago - and the $125 I was paid was vastly more on an hourly basis than my teaching salary had been ($15 being closer to that!).
I wasn't duped into following a charismatic leader. A couple of other teachers came back from a conference raving that they had heard the most profound, compelling speaker they had ever heard in their entire lives - not merely religious speaker, but any speaker. Intrigued, I looked into him and his ministry and arranged a lunch. Many years previously, I had taken a vow of fulltime Christian service that I hadn't fulfilled, and my wife and I were looking for something more meaningful in which we both could participate. I arranged a lunch at a Bob's Big Boy, and this guy offered me the future presidency out of the blue as though I were an answer to HIS prayers. So a lot of things came together when we chose to join him. As it turned out, he was one of those characters who had started with good intentions but been completely seduced by money and fame, to the extent that his ministry was a financial fraud and a disservice to those it was supposed to be helping. When we suddenly found ourselves sitting in our van with nowhere to go, the future looked about as bleak as it possibly could. They way things magically fell into place from that moment forward was nothing short of miraculous - to me anyway. When I had this to a handful of others in the same vein, it becomes very compelling - to me anyway.
Now that I think about it, that was one humorous aspect that struck me later. I had indeed taken a public (church) vow of fulltime Christian service that I hadn't fulfilled. Twenty years later, it was as though God had said, "Oh, yeah, bub, you're gonna fulfill that vow. It's not gonna be pretty, but you'll serve my purposes better than if you'd become a Baptist music minister."
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Like you, I'm looking forward to reading about others experiences.