How much is enough (charity)? (salvation, disciples, hell, America)

[LargeKingCat]

Last night we went to see Mission Impossible and during the previews the noted that they are bringing back for a short run National Lampoons vacation. THAT was a hilarious film

I bring this up because I would like to see a re-release of Jesus Christ Superstar from the 70s . Although we were forbidden by our church to go see it, I saw it anyway and enjoyed it as a teen.



Last week I was meeting with a friend who pastors a church here in town. He mentioned that the difference between him and me was that if he has extra money, he runs out to get something for himself without thinking, but if I have extra money, I think about how I can use it to help others. He mentioned that he recently was irritated a bit because some woman was begging him for money, then he felt guilty when he saw her sleeping on a park bench. No one should have to live like that. No One. He said that he needs to think sometimes about what others need before himself. But he is, after all only human.

Got me thinking about a scene in this film, my favorite song in the play, " Everything's Alright" and I started to wonder "How much is enough ?



Either way,
I wish they would bring back the original Jesus Christ Superstar . Would love to see it on a big screen again. Mary Magdalene
Sleep and I shall soothe you
Calm you, and anoint you
Myrrh for your hot forehead, oh
Then you'll feel
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And it's cool and the ointment's sweet
For the fire in your head and feet
Close your eyes, close your eyes
And relax, think of nothing tonight
Everything's alright, yes
Everything's alright, yes

Judas Iscariot
Woman, your fine ointment, brand new and expensive
Should have been saved for the poor
Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe
Three hundred silver pieces or more
People who are hungry, people who are starving
Matter more than your feet and hair!
Try not to get worried, try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you, oh
Don't you know
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And we want you to sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without you tonight
If we try, we'll get by, so forget all about us tonight
Everything's alright, yes
Everything's alright, yes

Jesus Christ
Surely you're not saying we have the resources
To save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always, pathetically struggling
Look at the good things you've got
Think while you still have me!
Move while you still see me!
You'll be lost, and you'll be sorry when I'm gone

Mary Magdalene
Sleep and I shall soothe you
Calm you, and anoint you
Myrrh for your hot forehead, oh
Then you'll feel
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And it's cool and the ointment's sweet
For the fire in your head and feet
Close your eyes, close your eyes
And relax, think of nothing tonight



Now we could discuss the meaning of these lyrics for months, and that is fine.

BUT I started thinking about first, helping our fellow human, and second, does our work really help?

Now there are religious people who interpret "helping" others a bit differently than I do. I think getting food on to someone's table tonight (Maslow's first level) is primal, but teaching them HOW to get food onto their OWN table is next. I always liked the Salvation Army's idea that if you give a man a fish you can feed him a meal but if you teach a man to fish, you can feed him for life.

I prefer to donate to two charities here primarily ho have a program in place to help train people for jobs, budgeting life skills etc. I also donate to education (colleges, schools etc) last would be to specific programs at churches, but not to religious charities.

That is my idea of helping.

But there are differences of opinions. In the Middle ages, the Spanish inquisition believed that helping someone was to force them to convert to Christianity, then immediately kill them before they could recant. A few Muslims believe that killing non-Muslims is the key to helping others. Last month, a Christian in Wisconsin approached a stranger in a restaurant and told him that his tattoos were sinful and that he was going to hell, then proceeded to kill the man. I wonder if he though that he was somehow helping too ?
But it does not happen on religious lines only. Human rights violations exist elsewhere, motivated by other issues. earlier this year, a man was beaten to death in Los Angeles while leaving a baseball game because he was wearing a jersey for the opponent team that evening. News reports weekly focus on racially motivated hate crimes. Somehow, hate has become acceptable in our society.

And there are religious and non-religious bases for both.


Our nation has become too divided. Not just politics, religions, race, but it seems that for the past 6 years or so as crime has risen, people have the new mentality of : "Don't like/agree/tolerate someone? Just kill them instead"
Brotherly love is gone, and the religious are just as much to blame as the non-religious.

so what will it take to be nice humans? What example do we need to reestablish politeness, basic respect for human rights and brotherly love?

I think that as a nation(USA), we are very mentally ill. Since insurance and the government has interfered with medical and psych treatments, we are seeing the results. But that is only part of it

I think that government leaders, who represent immaturity, selfishness, mental disorders in themselves, who put themselves, their party (George Washington is probably turning over in his grave) First are a big part of the problem. But that is only the part of it.

I think religious leaders and religious groups, the two largest the catholic and Southern Baptist being rocked by sexual scandals as an example, and the division that many religious leaders encourage is part of the problem. (Jesus is probably turning over in his grave too) But that is only part of the problem

The issue is selfishness, self hatred and low self esteem Having been in Europe for part of the summer, I could not help but notice, when talking to Europeans by comparison, what low self esteem Americans as a whole possess. Makes me want to move there instead of here. And until people learn to love their neighbor as themselves, in a way that is beneficial and measurable to both parties , as themselves, which means without selfishness, I do not see the problem resolving. Until we stop allowing ourselves to be guided by anger and hate (the dark side according to the Jedi masters) nothing will change.

[phetaroi]

A very thought-provoking post. I'll reserve comment for now, but am anxious to see some of the discussion that follows.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by LargeKingCat

Last night we went to see Mission Impossible and during the previews the noted that they are bringing back for a short run National Lampoons vacation. THAT was a hilarious film
I bring this up because I would like to see a re-release of Jesus Christ Superstar from the 70s . Although we were forbidden by our church to go see it, I saw it anyway and enjoyed it as a teen.
Last week I was meeting with a friend who pastors a church here in town. He mentioned that the difference between him and me was that if he has extra money, he runs out to get something for himself without thinking, but if I have extra money, I think about how I can use it to help others. He mentioned that he recently was irritated a bit because some woman was begging him for money, then he felt guilty when he saw her sleeping on a park bench. No one should have to live like that. No One. He said that he needs to think sometimes about what others need before himself. But he is, after all only human.
Got me thinking about a scene in this film, my favorite song in the play, " Everything's Alright" and I started to wonder "How much is enough ?
Either way,
I wish they would bring back the original Jesus Christ Superstar . Would love to see it on a big screen again. Mary Magdalene
Sleep and I shall soothe you
Calm you, and anoint you
Myrrh for your hot forehead, oh
Then you'll feel
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And it's cool and the ointment's sweet
For the fire in your head and feet
Close your eyes, close your eyes
And relax, think of nothing tonight
Everything's alright, yes
Everything's alright, yes
Judas Iscariot
Woman, your fine ointment, brand new and expensive
Should have been saved for the poor
Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe
Three hundred silver pieces or more
People who are hungry, people who are starving
Matter more than your feet and hair!
Try not to get worried, try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you, oh
Don't you know
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And we want you to sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without you tonight
If we try, we'll get by, so forget all about us tonight
Everything's alright, yes
Everything's alright, yes
Jesus Christ
Surely you're not saying we have the resources
To save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always, pathetically struggling
Look at the good things you've got
Think while you still have me!
Move while you still see me!
You'll be lost, and you'll be sorry when I'm gone
Mary Magdalene
Sleep and I shall soothe you
Calm you, and anoint you
Myrrh for your hot forehead, oh
Then you'll feel
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And it's cool and the ointment's sweet
For the fire in your head and feet
Close your eyes, close your eyes
And relax, think of nothing tonight
Now we could discuss the meaning of these lyrics for months, and that is fine.
BUT I started thinking about first, helping our fellow human, and second, does our work really help?
Now there are religious people who interpret "helping" others a bit differently than I do. I think getting food on to someone's table tonight (Maslow's first level) is primal, but teaching them HOW to get food onto their OWN table is next. I always liked the Salvation Army's idea that if you give a man a fish you can feed him a meal but if you teach a man to fish, you can feed him for life.
I prefer to donate to two charities here primarily ho have a program in place to help train people for jobs, budgeting life skills etc. I also donate to education (colleges, schools etc) last would be to specific programs at churches, but not to religious charities.
That is my idea of helping.
But there are differences of opinions. In the Middle ages, the Spanish inquisition believed that helping someone was to force them to convert to Christianity, then immediately kill them before they could recant. A few Muslims believe that killing non-Muslims is the key to helping others. Last month, a Christian in Wisconsin approached a stranger in a restaurant and told him that his tattoos were sinful and that he was going to hell, then proceeded to kill the man. I wonder if he though that he was somehow helping too ?
But it does not happen on religious lines only. Human rights violations exist elsewhere, motivated by other issues. earlier this year, a man was beaten to death in Los Angeles while leaving a baseball game because he was wearing a jersey for the opponent team that evening. News reports weekly focus on racially motivated hate crimes. Somehow, hate has become acceptable in our society.
And there are religious and non-religious bases for both.
Our nation has become too divided. Not just politics, religions, race, but it seems that for the past 6 years or so as crime has risen, people have the new mentality of : "Don't like/agree/tolerate someone? Just kill them instead"
Brotherly love is gone, and the religious are just as much to blame as the non-religious.
so what will it take to be nice humans? What example do we need to reestablish politeness, basic respect for human rights and brotherly love?
I think that as a nation(USA), we are very mentally ill. Since insurance and the government has interfered with medical and psych treatments, we are seeing the results. But that is only part of it
think that government leaders, who represent immaturity, selfishness, mental disorders in themselves, who put themselves, their party (George Washington is probably turning over in his grave) First are a big part of the problem. But that is only the part of it.
I think religious leaders and religious groups, the two largest the catholic and Southern Baptist being rocked by sexual scandals as an example, and the division that many religious leaders encourage is part of the problem. (Jesus is probably turning over in his grave too) But that is only part of the problem
The issue is selfishness, self hatred and low self esteem Having been in Europe for part of the summer, I could not help but notice, when talking to Europeans by comparison, what low self esteem Americans as a whole possess. Makes me want to move there instead of here. And until people learn to love their neighbor as themselves, in a way that is beneficial and measurable to both parties , as themselves, which means without selfishness, I do not see the problem resolving. Until we stop allowing ourselves to be guided by anger and hate (the dark side according to the Jedi masters) nothing will change.

I find the view expressed in bold above a bit jarring.
since when is love "measurable" ?
and why must helping others be beneficial to you yourself?

because proclaiming "must be without selfishness" and then at the same time proclaiming "must benefit self" is jarring.
it smacks of tit for tat, keeping score, of not helping others unless you yourself get something out of it. that is the antithesis of "without selfishness." why insist that helping others must benefit you yourself? that is itself an act of selfishness to say any help extended to others must also benefit you yourself.

[mordant]

It is very relative. I don't pretend to have a definitive answer. What I will say is that it is an individual decision and one must be very careful not to judge other's calculus because we don't have all the info.

For example I make an excellent income and live pretty responsibly, such that we've been substantially debt-free since we were probably in our mid 50s.

On the other hand we are housing my 30 year-old stepson who has various challenges and cannot function independently, I may well have to take in my older brother for his final years soon if things keep heading in the direction I think they are, and I am a good 15 years behind in saving for retirement, in large measure because I spent a ton of money on uninsured / experimental healthcare trying to keep my late / previous wife alive. My current wife has had to retire early to care for her son, and I am working well past my "best used by" date to pay for all this; I will be at least going on 69 when I even start pulling back. So my charitable giving is near-zero, unless you count caring for my stepson.

I think a lot of people are like us, they are caring for relatives and hedging their bets with the direction things are going in generally with the economy, climate, war, pandemics, etc. I think we are generous in spirit but it would be irresponsible to put much of our income to charity just now. I would rather make sure we're okay in our waning years with some degree of dignity and self-determination and if we save more than we end up needing personally, leave a nice stipend for my stepson if he's unable to launch ultimately. In that event, he'll need it.

When it comes to random panhandlers it is VERY hard to ascertain whether they are on hard times or just looking for a fix, to be honest. Especially around our area, where it's a known fact that there are professional beggars. If I were giving more regularly it would be to the local orgs that actually clothe and house the homeless and know how to go about it, not piecemeal out on the street someplace. There's an excellent homeless shelter I would support.

When my wife is back on her feet from her knee replacements, it is very likely she will give of her time to some of those causes.

So things are not always what they seem. I could be perceived as "sitting pretty" and being quite parsimonious with my giving, but there are reasons for it.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by mordant

...

When it comes to random panhandlers it is VERY hard to ascertain whether they are on hard times or just looking for a fix, to be honest. Especially around our area, where it's a known fact that there are professional beggars. If I were giving more regularly it would be to the local orgs that actually clothe and house the homeless and know how to go about it, not piecemeal out on the street someplace. There's an excellent homeless shelter I would support.

...

I found the above part of your post particularly interesting, and it got me thinking that for me to donate to charity -- and I do* -- I have to see it as an investment.

For example, when I was in Thailand I gave a lot of little donations to beggars on the street IF there was an obvious reason for their inability to provide for themselves. For example -- lepers, amputees, and so forth. But just beggars...nope. I know that some may have been very legit, so I gave to those whose need was most obvious.

Here in this country I almost never give to beggars and panhandlers. I used to sometimes...but most times when I did they ended up buying beer or other alcohol with my money. It doesn't look like a good investment to donate to people who a month the road, 6 months down the road, or 5 years down the road will still be begging. I wanna know that my money will do some longterm good.


* I give to some charities every once in a while, but on Thanksiving Day each year I sit down with my checkbook and write some pretty decent checks to particular chaitable organizations. Lately I've also been donating to an international organization who has one project where they are supporting foster care programs in Thailand.

[ukrkoz]

Problem with charity and handouts is, they tend to spoil the recipient. What is hard worked for, is valued. What is given, is not valued by the most with few exemptions. Good example is totally failing welfare system.
Charity is a very very fine art. As it is, also, an open gate for fraud and embezzlement.
Don't give fish
teach, how to catch fish.

Maybe watch South Park Night of The Walking Homeless. Very on spot and up to date.

[Tzaphkiel]

i was taught that the purpose and reason for giving charity
is to break and remedy our own selfishness and greed.


that has always made the most sense to me.
and yes that teaching is from the religion i follow.

[Tzaphkiel]

i also rather like what i heard someone express.
she frequently hands out money to yes people on the street and when people criticize her for this and say "why do you do that"


she answers "because i can"

that has always stayed with me also. i too can and do hand out 10 and 20 dollar bills on a regular basis.
because i can.

[Hannibal Flavius]

Originally Posted by LargeKingCat

Last night we went to see Mission Impossible and during the previews the noted that they are bringing back for a short run National Lampoons vacation. THAT was a hilarious film

I bring this up because I would like to see a re-release of Jesus Christ Superstar from the 70s . Although we were forbidden by our church to go see it, I saw it anyway and enjoyed it as a teen.



Last week I was meeting with a friend who pastors a church here in town. He mentioned that the difference between him and me was that if he has extra money, he runs out to get something for himself without thinking, but if I have extra money, I think about how I can use it to help others. He mentioned that he recently was irritated a bit because some woman was begging him for money, then he felt guilty when he saw her sleeping on a park bench. No one should have to live like that. No One. He said that he needs to think sometimes about what others need before himself. But he is, after all only human.

Got me thinking about a scene in this film, my favorite song in the play, " Everything's Alright" and I started to wonder "How much is enough ?



Either way,
I wish they would bring back the original Jesus Christ Superstar . Would love to see it on a big screen again. Mary Magdalene
Sleep and I shall soothe you
Calm you, and anoint you
Myrrh for your hot forehead, oh
Then you'll feel
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And it's cool and the ointment's sweet
For the fire in your head and feet
Close your eyes, close your eyes
And relax, think of nothing tonight
Everything's alright, yes
Everything's alright, yes

Judas Iscariot
Woman, your fine ointment, brand new and expensive
Should have been saved for the poor
Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe
Three hundred silver pieces or more
People who are hungry, people who are starving
Matter more than your feet and hair!
Try not to get worried, try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you, oh
Don't you know
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And we want you to sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without you tonight
If we try, we'll get by, so forget all about us tonight
Everything's alright, yes
Everything's alright, yes

Jesus Christ
Surely you're not saying we have the resources
To save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always, pathetically struggling
Look at the good things you've got
Think while you still have me!
Move while you still see me!
You'll be lost, and you'll be sorry when I'm gone

Mary Magdalene
Sleep and I shall soothe you
Calm you, and anoint you
Myrrh for your hot forehead, oh
Then you'll feel
Everything's alright, yes, everything's fine
And it's cool and the ointment's sweet
For the fire in your head and feet
Close your eyes, close your eyes
And relax, think of nothing tonight



Now we could discuss the meaning of these lyrics for months, and that is fine.

BUT I started thinking about first, helping our fellow human, and second, does our work really help?

Now there are religious people who interpret "helping" others a bit differently than I do. I think getting food on to someone's table tonight (Maslow's first level) is primal, but teaching them HOW to get food onto their OWN table is next. I always liked the Salvation Army's idea that if you give a man a fish you can feed him a meal but if you teach a man to fish, you can feed him for life.

I prefer to donate to two charities here primarily ho have a program in place to help train people for jobs, budgeting life skills etc. I also donate to education (colleges, schools etc) last would be to specific programs at churches, but not to religious charities.

That is my idea of helping.

But there are differences of opinions. In the Middle ages, the Spanish inquisition believed that helping someone was to force them to convert to Christianity, then immediately kill them before they could recant. A few Muslims believe that killing non-Muslims is the key to helping others. Last month, a Christian in Wisconsin approached a stranger in a restaurant and told him that his tattoos were sinful and that he was going to hell, then proceeded to kill the man. I wonder if he though that he was somehow helping too ?
But it does not happen on religious lines only. Human rights violations exist elsewhere, motivated by other issues. earlier this year, a man was beaten to death in Los Angeles while leaving a baseball game because he was wearing a jersey for the opponent team that evening. News reports weekly focus on racially motivated hate crimes. Somehow, hate has become acceptable in our society.

And there are religious and non-religious bases for both.


Our nation has become too divided. Not just politics, religions, race, but it seems that for the past 6 years or so as crime has risen, people have the new mentality of : "Don't like/agree/tolerate someone? Just kill them instead"
Brotherly love is gone, and the religious are just as much to blame as the non-religious.

so what will it take to be nice humans? What example do we need to reestablish politeness, basic respect for human rights and brotherly love?

I think that as a nation(USA), we are very mentally ill. Since insurance and the government has interfered with medical and psych treatments, we are seeing the results. But that is only part of it

I think that government leaders, who represent immaturity, selfishness, mental disorders in themselves, who put themselves, their party (George Washington is probably turning over in his grave) First are a big part of the problem. But that is only the part of it.

I think religious leaders and religious groups, the two largest the catholic and Southern Baptist being rocked by sexual scandals as an example, and the division that many religious leaders encourage is part of the problem. (Jesus is probably turning over in his grave too) But that is only part of the problem

The issue is selfishness, self hatred and low self esteem Having been in Europe for part of the summer, I could not help but notice, when talking to Europeans by comparison, what low self esteem Americans as a whole possess. Makes me want to move there instead of here. And until people learn to love their neighbor as themselves, in a way that is beneficial and measurable to both parties , as themselves, which means without selfishness, I do not see the problem resolving. Until we stop allowing ourselves to be guided by anger and hate (the dark side according to the Jedi masters) nothing will change.

Jesus and all the disciples had one priority, they sold lands, businesses, husbands sold houses with wives becoming homeless, they sold all they owned for one cause.



The Jewish widows, Jewish orphans, Jewish disabled elderly.




Now you can make out of this what you will, but the priorities of Jesus and all his disciples was to heal the wounds of Israel, not the wounds of the world, they didn't sell all they owned for just anyone, they didnt worry about feeding non Jewish, their money was spent on the commonwealth of Israel seeing to the needs of Jews, NOT GENTILES.


Anyone can say what they will but the priorities of Jesus and all his followers tell a true story of who they supported through charity, and there are no Gentiles on the list.

You support the people and businesses that believe as you, Jesus and his disciples supported widows of Judah.



The entire cause of Christianity, the widows and orphans of Judah, Christianity's one concern.

[elyn02]

When I do give, I don't think about how the money will be used once it leaves my hands. So it is not how much that is given that determines how charitable I am. Instead, it is the lack of strings attached.

My personal opinion is that good infrastructure is the best thing a society can pour money into especially after coming back from a trip through central and northern Europe. The countries I am specifically referring to are Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.