Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
so in the case of, for example on this thread music being posted from musician imprisoned in Germany for 76 counts of child sexual abuse (after being charged with 314 counts of child abuse), is that "necessarily important" ? Does it matter with regards to "inspirational music"? In my view it does. It raises the question do we continue to promote and praise the music of people who have committed abhorrent violent criminal acts? how does it change how we view their music? that is relevant (to me anyway) on a thread about where we draw inspiration. I'd be interested in hearing readers views on this, on how it affects their listening pleasure when they find something out like this. Or whether it makes any difference at all.
Art is divine, an inspiration that is mysterious, and profound. When we create art, be it a work of fiction or music, we are expressing the creative power of divinity itself. It is not a thing our body possess, it has power of its own to move minds, produce joy, urge contemplation. The work is separate from the creator. It has a different effect on different people, and each one interprets it differently.
When I read the works of writers I know to be damaged human beings, i can appreciate the work and also be critical of the creator. But the work always remains pure. I do not believe in banning books or art or music. It is always possible to read and view them critically.
Unless we are talking about polemic. That comes from a dark place.
so in the case of, for example on this thread music being posted from musician imprisoned in Germany for 76 counts of child sexual abuse (after being charged with 314 counts of child abuse), is that "necessarily important" ? Does it matter with regards to "inspirational music"? In my view it does. It raises the question do we continue to promote and praise the music of people who have committed abhorrent violent criminal acts? how does it change how we view their music? that is relevant (to me anyway) on a thread about where we draw inspiration. I'd be interested in hearing readers views on this, on how it affects their listening pleasure when they find something out like this. Or whether it makes any difference at all.
i'm not talking about theory and i'm not talking about banning.
i'm asking the simple question of readers can you personally enjoy and promote and praise the music in the same way knowing the musician commits violent abhorrent criminal acts.
i can not. that's just me.
nothing grand or sweeping or academic in the question at all. just each person's own personal individual response and reaction.
i will not give a stage or an audience or link and align my life force with that in any way shape or form.
by withdrawing my energy and attention from it, i remove that which sustains it. so that it may wither instead of spreading.
my feeling is that it is an important question to consider. and i appreciate people sharing their views and contributing to the discussion
Art is divine, an inspiration that is mysterious, and profound. When we create art, be it a work of fiction or music, we are expressing the creative power of divinity itself. It is not a thing our body possess, it has power of its own to move minds, produce joy, urge contemplation. The work is separate from the creator. It has a different effect on different people, and each one interprets it differently.
When I read the works of writers I know to be damaged human beings, i can appreciate the work and also be critical of the creator. But the work always remains pure. I do not believe in banning books or art or music. It is always possible to read and view them critically.
Unless we are talking about polemic. That comes from a dark place.
i don't think in terms of this or that musician being "damaged human beings."
it's more a question for me of what i choose to ingest. whether it is food i am ingesting (i choose not to ingest carcinogens and narcotics for instance), or what i ingest visually (for instance shows with gratuitous violence), what i ingest intellectually (such as avoiding books or sites or media which incite hate), or what i ingest by auditory means (music).
what all those have in common for me is that i choose not to ingest that which for me is toxic and causes harm. i disagree that "the work always remains pure." just like all food and drink in my opinion does not "always remain pure." heroin is not the same as a tuna sandwich. cigarettes are not the same as a glass of water. music from someone shooting up heroin is not the same as music from artists who are not drug addicts.
and if a guy in town who say is a house painter or auto mechanic, and they are charged with 314 counts of child abuse and sentenced to prison for 76 counts of child sexual abuse then no i am not going to patronize their business or company. same for a band or musician, not going to support praise or promote their work.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-23-2023 at 11:37 AM..
i'm not talking about theory and i'm not talking about banning.
i'm asking the simple question of readers can you personally enjoy and promote and praise the music in the same way knowing the musician commits violent abhorrent criminal acts.
i can not. that's just me.
nothing grand or sweeping or academic in the question at all. just each person's own personal individual response and reaction.
i will not give a stage or an audience or link and align my life force with that in any way shape or form.
by withdrawing my energy and attention from it, i remove that which sustains it. so that it may wither instead of spreading.
my feeling is that it is an important question to consider. and i appreciate people sharing their views and contributing to the discussion
I have not listened to any of the music so I have no comment on them. I also do not know the crimes the artist had committed but I will take your word for it and yes, it is horrendous.
It is indeed an important question to consider and also in light of religion and spirituality that this forum is, as the topic itself states.
As Divinity is everywhere and nowhere does it not exist, it is in all of us regardless of what our mind and body is or does. Spirit is not the body and mind. It is always pure, and it is always joy. Art is a power of Divinity that is expressed through the body. Without body art cannot manifest.
The man who committed the crime should be punished to the full extent of the law, and he will live the consequences of his karma.
Yes, if the music moves me and gives me joy, I will listen to it without any discomfort thinking about the man who composed or made it. The beauty and joy is Divinity that I celebrate.
but see i can't and don't celebrate or ingest that which is toxic and causes harm.
real-life situation here:
a popular and successful musician produces a huge catalog of musical works which are beloved by the religious community he belongs to. They are inspiring and moving and become part of religious services in many thousand houses of worship around the world.
well, it surfaces that during his lifetime the musician sexually molested dozens (if not hundreds) of women, girls, teenagers, and children. his own daughter was sexually molested at age 9 by a friend of her father's. when she tells her father he does not believe her. she relates that all the women and girls she knew growing up had been sexually molested by these men. Nothing was done about it. Some did not believe the women and girls. others believed but did nothing about it.
so now the question arises and this is pertinent to the thread topic which is music we find inspirational that "touches the spirit." Do we continue to play the music penned by this perpetrator in the houses of worship? This is an ongoing question in the religious community. Women and girls who have been molested by this man, sitting in religious services where the music is being played, sitting with their daughters who are aware of his history and crimes. What do we do as individuals and as a religious community? how do we honor care for protect and yes make amends to the women and girls and children who went through multiple traumas including people singing and clapping to music from the perpetrator? how do we keep the house of worship a safe place and sanctuary for families, for prayer, for learning?
nurturing spirit is how we nurture ourself and our loved ones. it is said that how we treat women and children is an indicator of the health of a person, health of a family, health of a community, health of a nation.
let's make it personal: if your wife or daughter was sexually molested by a man, would you continue to play and sing and dance to the music of that man and continue to play it weekly in your home with her sitting right there. Would you be oblivious to the pain of your wife and daughter because "hey its just music" or "hey its divinity its always pure"
i have thought on this for years and continue to think on this. i have read and continue to read dozens of articles stories painful life experiences described by the women and girls who went through this, and their families, and their daughters. i no longer can listen to his music. and i believe it is an important area to wrestle with in terms of how i live breathe walk and practice my own path.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-23-2023 at 01:09 PM..
i don't think in terms of this or that musician being "damaged human beings."
it's more a question for me of what i choose to ingest. whether it is food i am ingesting (i choose not to ingest carcinogens and narcotics for instance), or what i ingest visually (for instance shows with gratuitous violence), what i ingest intellectually (such as avoiding books or sites or media which incite hate), or what i ingest by auditory means (music).
what all those have in common for me is that i choose not to ingest that which for me is toxic and causes harm. i disagree that "the work always remains pure." just like all food and drink in my opinion does not "always remain pure." heroin is not the same as a tuna sandwich. cigarettes are not the same as a glass of water. music from someone shooting up heroin is not the same as music from artists who are not drug addicts.
and if a guy in town who say is a house painter or auto mechanic, and they are charged with 314 counts of child abuse and sentenced to prison for 76 counts of child sexual abuse then no i am not going to patronize their business or company. same for a band or musician, not going to support praise or promote their work.
I know right, hope everything is going well with you sweety, and yeah, I wouldnt patronize somebody like that for any reason, I would go further, find out which jail he is sent to and tell the other inmates. A. Lot of people are against the death penalty, but in my eyes he should already be in the ground, his music should be destroyed and his name written in the sand and remembered no more.
I have no tolerance or sympathy for evil, and dude is just evil if the allegations are true, needs to be put down like a rabid dog. Should be law, if you jack with children, then let he who bears the sword being justice for that family.
but see i can't and don't celebrate or ingest that which is toxic and causes harm.
real-life situation here:
a popular and successful musician produces a huge catalog of musical works which are beloved by the religious community he belongs to. They are inspiring and moving and become part of religious services in many thousand houses of worship around the world.
well, it surfaces that during his lifetime the musician sexually molested dozens (if not hundreds) of women, girls, teenagers, and children. his own daughter was sexually molested at age 9 by a friend of her father's. when she tells her father he does not believe her. she relates that all the women and girls she knew growing up had been sexually molested by these men. Nothing was done about it. Some did not believe the women and girls. others believed but did nothing about it.
so now the question arises and this is pertinent to the thread topic which is music we find inspirational that "touches the spirit." Do we continue to play the music penned by this perpetrator in the houses of worship? This is an ongoing question in the religious community. Women and girls who have been molested by this man, sitting in religious services where the music is being played, sitting with their daughters who are aware of his history and crimes. What do we do as individuals and as a religious community? how do we honor care for protect and yes make amends to the women and girls and children who went through multiple traumas including people singing and clapping to music from the perpetrator? how do we keep the house of worship a safe place and sanctuary for families, for prayer, for learning?
nurturing spirit is how we nurture ourself and our loved ones. it is said that how we treat women and children is an indicator of the health of a person, health of a family, health of a community, health of a nation.
let's make it personal: if your wife or daughter was sexually molested by a man, would you continue to play and sing and dance to the music of that man and continue to play it weekly in your home with her sitting right there. Would you be oblivious to the pain of your wife and daughter because "hey its just music" or "hey its divinity its always pure"
i have thought on this for years and continue to think on this. i have read and continue to read dozens of articles stories painful life experiences described by the women and girls who went through this, and their families, and their daughters. i no longer can listen to his music. and i believe it is an important area to wrestle with in terms of how i live breathe walk and practice my own path.
It is a tough question when you make it personal, yes. I probably will set aside my rational thinking and follow my emotion in that situation. I don't know.
We live in a civil society that prosecutes criminals and provides justice of a kind.
In reality human justice is imperfect and often cruel and monstrous. Emmett Till was abducted, tortured, and lynched in Mississippi in 1955 at the age of 14, after being falsely accused of offending a white woman. This is not a singular occurrence, in fact many murders are revenge killing. Many rapes are revenge rape. I don't believe in revenge. Being as we are in the spiritual forum, many religions advocate eschewing revenge and leaving it to the Cosmic Order, and instead practice forgiveness. Humans are capable of both intense acts of revenge and extraordinary forgiveness.
Coming back to music, if the music moves me spiritually, I will see only Divinity in it. Yes. When I hear spiritual classical music that moves me i rarely think of the singer, the songwriter, or even myself. It is the words, the music, the voice and the meaning it holds, all of which can move me to tears of ecstasy.
None of this has to do with making amends to the children and women who were victimized, or what decision the religious group should do collectively about the music.
. In 1999, O'Connor was ordained as a priest by the Irish Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, an Independent Catholic sect that is not recognised by the Roman Catholic Church. She consistently spoke out on issues related to child abuse, human rights, racism, organised religion, and women's rights. Throughout her music career, she spoke about her spiritual journey, activism, socio-political views, as well as her trauma and mental health struggles. In 2017, O'Connor changed her name to Magda Davitt. After converting to Islam in 2018, she changed it to Shuhada' Sadaqat. She continued to record and perform under her birth name.
If you know could you talk about the psalm 91?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
RIP Sinead
