Asked A Dozen Times: Why Does Hell Have To Contain Fire??? (atheist, agnostic)
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I posed this question a dozen times in the Christian forum and no Christian has ever been able to answer.
Please give us logical explanation why God simply has to have us burning in fire in hell eternally or He's really pissed. The Bible gives no origin or explanation for fire in hell. Why couldn't God have created a twilight zone where sinners just exist in darkness or gray mist. Why explicitly does a soul have to burn in fire in order to satisfy God? What's the purpose? Just to make a sinner suffer the most extreme pain God can inflict on them? Isn't God able to devise pain that's 10x's worse than the most painful punishment fire can inflict? Please explain.
The only alternative is that this "fire in hell" thing was an invention of the early Church to scare pagans into joining Christianity.
There is no easy answer to this question because using scripture, you can make a case for a literal hell or a non-literal hell. And both positions are problematic. I lean towards hell being either non-literal or temporary for season reasons:
1. Fire destroys. When God uses fire to judge, it is final and destroyed. He didn't leave Sodom and Gomorrah in an never ending state of burning. It doesn't make sense why God would keep the wicked alive instead of just blotting them out from reality. There isn't a single example from the Bible where God orders his people to torture their enemies. The punishment is carried out swifty.
2. As you pointed out, belief in an eternal never ending torment turns God into a cosmic sadist. That is just such a strong contrast to the God we know as one who loves and gives to his creation.
3. Jesus mentioned hell as a place of destruction. If you destroying something, you don't keep it alive.
Matthew 10:28 specifically says body and soul will be destroyed in hell. That's from Jesus.
4. Hebrews 6:2 mentions eternal judgement. If that means a never ending ongoing judgement then that doesn't fit with scripture that talks about eternal redemption. Jesus isn't in an ongoing process of redeeming us from sin. It was a one time act on the cross that did it.
5. The strongest verses suggesting an eternal lake of fire hell is in Revelation. You have to be really careful with Revelation because it is a book deep with symbols and not meant to be taken 100% literally.
6. Fire is physical and hell is a spiritual realm. When we die, our spirits are released from the physical body so it doesn't seem logical to me that God would put the lost back in a physical form that can be burned up but not destroyed. If hell is eternal, it wouldn't be like having a physical body burning on fire.
7. The traditional view of hell suggests that everyone gets the same horrific punishment. The lost person who pays their taxes , gives to charity and doesn't hurt anyone is tormented just the same as Hitler. That doesn't make sense either because why even have the Great White Throne judgement if you are screwed anyways? It would be pointless. Verses like Luke 12:47-48 suggest that there are degrees of punishment so Hitler's time in hell may be longer than someone who is just an atheist.
8. Also, there are references to hell that translate as the garbage dump where garbage was burned up. It's possible that the authors of the Bible used their same references to symbolically describe a final punishment that you can't come back from. The thought of no longer existing when you can have eternal life instead is saddening enough.
That is odd how hellfire is believed to be so but no Christian has yet to answer as why hell is from Mars because it was refused.
The Christian version of hell in those Bibles as it reads is not as bad a version of hellfire as described in "The Book of the Dead."
One may try to devise another way to look to why God is not filled with judgment and that is their right to believe it is pretend.
If the Lord Jesus Christ said everlasting torment then that is what He meant because He does and if not believed it's unbelieved.
There are levels of heaven and hell dependent on one's choices in the one life given, that choices made will be as fruit gathered.
The intergalactic warfare of a kind which made planets go extinct as man has one chance to live a life for good or for the baited.
Ammit the Devourer who is in the form of a lion, a hippopotamus, a crocodile, how man lives to destroying the Kingdom of God.
Genesis 1 is the suite the Creator of the whole universe set as man became a destructive cycle to where the cherubim are placed.
How and why it is that way that man will not cure himself of a desire to continue to overstep His rules so he enters hell employed.
The warnings given in so many ways to it is only disastrous to continue to ignore those elements of the deep opening hell up wide.
The text cycles of violence is that God has a Kingdom and it is not the one the world has to offer as it will be absolutely destroyed.
Now you see, Orion if we're going to take this route it opens up a whole new can of worms.
Theists are now saying that "maybe, just maybe" we've been misinterpreting these "fire and brimstone" passages for nearly two millennia. That maybe it isn't actually a spiritual kind of physical fire, but rather a mental torment that comes from being separated from God for eternity.
Now if we're going to believe this, then this the entire foundation of "the Holy Spirit interprets scriptures for man" gets shot to pieces. Because if the mental torment thing is true then where was the Holy Spirit during 300CE-1900CE when eternal torment in in fire was the absolute law? In fact, the Holy Spirit was guiding Tertullian and Augustine to establish eternal fiery torment as the official policy.
Quote:
The traditional view of hell as a fiery cauldron of punishment has been taught for centuries. Perhaps one of the earliest to expound this view among Christians was the Catholic theologian Tertullian, who lived around A.D. 160-225. In the third century, Cyprian of Carthage also wrote: “The damned will burn for ever in hell. Devouring flames will be their eternal portion. Their torments will never have diminution or end” (quoted by Peter Toon, Heaven and Hell: A Biblical and Theological Overview, 1986, p. 163).
Now Christianity is painted into corner:
If eternal fiery torment is not what God intended then the RCC and the Protestant reformation have been either misled by the Holy Spirit for centuriesOR for centuries Christianity has been following its own beliefs on hell for nefarious purposes, not by divine guidance. And if Christianity has been deliberately ignoring the Holy Spirit's guidance, then what other beliefs has Christianity established on its own without the Holy Spirit's guidance?
Further, if the Holy Spirit has been trying to teach Christians the true meaning of the hell verses being "eternal separation from God and the mental torment that comes with it" but the devil deceived Christian leaders, then the devil is more powerful than the Holy Spirit.
You see? Christians cannot have it both ways. The Holy Spirit was either wrong from the start and man is now getting around to correcting the Holy Spirit's mistakes Or the Holy Spirit was right--man WILL burn forever in fiery torment and church leaders today are leading Christians astray with a false teaching on eternal punishment being mental torment, notspiritually physical fiery torment.
If you are going to take something as to gather it up as to try to dispense the fact that the Egyptians believed in an everlasting hell of a physical kind then you shall have no such luck bread.
The 'different levels' of hell are what the Egyptian Book of the Dead describe and so to try to take that to master another concept will not be found to be what you might be looking to dread.
There's nothing in the Egyptian Book of the Dead which cancels the hell the Christians have told this board about for it it their own stubborn will which takes them there at God is canceled.
The constant running back and forth in attempts to minimize something which exists when it's funny to laugh at a pig going to someone's dinner plate after the animal has violently suffered.
"Now you see, Orion if we're going to take this route it opens up a whole new can of worms" where a soul does not die but is held with feelings of its own that it will know that the Lord is God.
There is no mockery of Christ or his believing ones even if they have not all the syllables correct or inside of modification because God is just as that was wrong a police officer was at bribed.
That one will take the law to fit his will but State Property isn't going to accept the lousy options it has been given that I don't have to accept anything less than it's the truth so what go on lie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Now you see, Orion if we're going to take this route it opens up a whole new can of worms.
Theists are now saying that "maybe, just maybe" we've been misinterpreting these "fire and brimstone" passages for nearly two millennia. That maybe it isn't actually a spiritual kind of physical fire, but rather a mental torment that comes from being separated from God for eternity
[...]
Now Christianity is painted into corner:
If eternal fiery torment is not what God intended then the RCC and the Protestant reformation have been either misled by the Holy Spirit for centuriesOR for centuries Christianity has been following its own beliefs on hell for nefarious purposes, not by divine guidance. And if Christianity has been deliberately ignoring the Holy Spirit's guidance, then what other beliefs has Christianity established on its own without the Holy Spirit's guidance?
You see? Christians cannot have it both ways. The Holy Spirit was either wrong from the start...
[...]
That is odd how hellfire is believed to be so but no Christian has yet to answer as why hell is from Mars because it was refused.
The Christian version of hell in those Bibles as it reads is not as bad a version of hellfire as described in "The Book of the Dead."
One may try to devise another way to look to why God is not filled with judgment and that is their right to believe it is pretend.
If the Lord Jesus Christ said everlasting torment then that is what He meant because He does and if not believed it's unbelieved.
There are levels of heaven and hell dependent on one's choices in the one life given, that choices made will be as fruit gathered.
The intergalactic warfare of a kind which made planets go extinct as man has one chance to live a life for good or for the baited.
Ammit the Devourer who is in the form of a lion, a hippopotamus, a crocodile, how man lives to destroying the Kingdom of God.
Genesis 1 is the suite the Creator of the whole universe set as man became a destructive cycle to where the cherubim are placed.
How and why it is that way that man will not cure himself of a desire to continue to overstep His rules so he enters hell employed.
The warnings given in so many ways to it is only disastrous to continue to ignore those elements of the deep opening hell up wide.
The text cycles of violence is that God has a Kingdom and it is not the one the world has to offer as it will be absolutely destroyed.
For example, you may deny something with the strongest of sentiments, but if I release a couple of hornets in your shirt, you will immediately accept it if it helps get the hornets out of your shirt.
You want to deny the might of God? Be my guest and do it. But then don't cry a river when you face the consequences because no one can win from God.
IMO, God's "MIGHT" comes with JUSTICE !! Read below.
No, because God does NOT put a gun on someone's head and orders him to march towards hell. If one goes to hell, it's NOT because of God's might - It's because he is facing consequences of his own actions that were taken based on free will.
God does NOT send anyone to hell, unfairly!
Is this really hard to understand?
A person rapes and kills knowing that it's against the laws and he may face punishment. Now he gets convicted and the judge says, hang him.
What you are saying is that this person is innocent, and the judge used his "might" to punish the convict.
The convict must know before raping and killing that it may lead to death penalty, so better think before you do it. Is death penalty or burning in hell is too harsh of a punishment? Well tough luck! Don't take a chance then. This "too harsh of a punishment" should actually act as a deterrence!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
No one is questioning God here. What is being questioned is men's ideas ABOUT God.
The OP's gist is, why there is fire in hell. It's like asking, why my skin burns when I put my hand in fire? Or why the milk is white or why the leaves are green?
What is men's idea about God being asked? Please explain.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 08-18-2017 at 12:22 PM..
Again, all references to fire and hell are Jewish idioms concerning how far you go in the feasts, and this depicts how far you progress in the temple.
EVERY ONE who is sent to the outer court of darkness is in hell as far as every scripture of hell is pointing to.
The Temple is specifically there to show you what the kingdom of heaven is, and when you are sent to the outer court of darkness, the scriptures of hell PERTAIN to you, but EVERY ONE in the outer court of darkness is STILL SAVED. Their salvation is compared to the great blessing of those who reached the holy of holies, and theirs is a hell of salvation, but to be compared to others who went all the way, your fire will never be quenched.
All this world has is the opinion of Christians who don't know anything about Jewish feasts, they don't know anything about Jewish idioms and the design of the temple with it's comings and goings, and if they did know these things, they wouldn't be sitting here speaking as if there is a literal hell. The outer court of darkness is the least in the kingdom of heaven and every scripture of fire and torment and hell is taking place to the people who refused to live their lives in the service of God, and they do not obtain the reward of first resurrection and this is where hell comes into play.
Their resurrection body is burned when the works of all men will be tested by fire, and the righteous will stand in the flames watching as their resurrection bodies DO NOT BURN.
If you have not raised a full grown son, then you have not raised a resurrection body and whatever work you have put into your resurrection, IT WILL ALL BE BURNED and the flame NEVER goes out because you don't get a resurrection body that is able to stand within the flames.
You aren't in some hell being tormented, YOU ARE IN THE OUTER COURT OF DARKNESS.
BECAUSE Christianity has rejected all the Jewish Holy days of Messiah, and BECAUSE they refuse to learn anything Jewish, or to know the design of the Temple and all the comings and goings of the Temple they claim to be, They cannot read and understand Jewish idioms of temple design and every scripture of hell referring to a believer being sent to the court of darkness.
MANY will come and say,'' But Jesus, we taught your name in the streets and did miracles in your name.''
Jesus will reply to them,'' I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME YOU LAW BREAKERS.''
These people believed in Jesus and they are saved, and you can even decide not to keep the laws of Moses and even teach others not to keep the laws of Moses and STILL BE SAVED, but you are sent TO HELL, you are sent to the outer court of darkness where YOU DO have salvation, but with no resurrection body, the comparison is that your fire will never be quenched, your worm will never die because it never received the rain of Sukkot.
This is a JEWISH BOOK, and these scriptures of hell are derived from JEWISH idioms of JEWISH feasts, and this thread is posted in a Christian forum whose followers don't know anything about Jewish feasts and Jewish idioms, and the design of the temple with all it's comings and goings to show you the 3 sections of the temple where you would point at the outer court of darkness to say,'' THERE IS HELL,''
STILL SAVED, but you are the least in the kingdom.
Christians DONT KNOW Jewish things, DONT LET another one tell you that you are going to hell because you aren't going to hell, they don't know what they are talking about because they reject all the knowledge of Jewish things that would teach them these scriptures.
Again, all references to fire and hell are Jewish idioms concerning how far you go in the feasts, and this depicts how far you progress in the temple.
EVERY ONE who is sent to the outer court of darkness is in hell as far as every scripture of hell is pointing to.
The Temple is specifically there to show you what the kingdom of heaven is, and when you are sent to the outer court of darkness, the scriptures of hell PERTAIN to you, but EVERY ONE in the outer court of darkness is STILL SAVED. Their salvation is compared to the great blessing of those who reached the holy of holies, and theirs is a hell of salvation, but to be compared to others who went all the way, your fire will never be quenched.
This is the biggest bunch of garbage that you may try to pass the test of 'EVERY ONE in the outer court of darkness is STILL SAVED."
[...]
You aren't in some hell being tormented, YOU ARE IN THE OUTER COURT OF DARKNESS.
[...]
For one who has positioned himself high up in life where the microphone must be turned off at the present moment to rant and rave on those airwaves for the radio program and tv sets, the internet also...
A man who became a Christian minister of which he preached the Gospel as best he could never relented in his attempts to tell others that a real hot hell existed because he went there when he was sent.
He briefly died and went to a literal burning hell that was as hot as a briquette and you want to write a bunch of nonsense that is your own philosophy that merits nothing but he would say you're apostate.
You have done everything you could with the rest of your accounts to sway others away from God because you are headed to hell anyway you look at it bud, you will never change: you never changed it.
If hell is a literal place where unbelievers will burn for all eternity, then it was no point in God even bothering with creation knowing that 70-80% of the planet ahead of time would end up with that fate according to scriptures for not accepting Jesus.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
How exactly can one perish, if they are burning in hell for eternity, at this point they have eternal life, just one where they are suffering.
There is no easy answer to this question because using scripture, you can make a case for a literal hell or a non-literal hell. And both positions are problematic. I lean towards hell being either non-literal or temporary for season reasons:
1. Fire destroys. When God uses fire to judge, it is final and destroyed. He didn't leave Sodom and Gomorrah in an never ending state of burning. It doesn't make sense why God would keep the wicked alive instead of just blotting them out from reality. There isn't a single example from the Bible where God orders his people to torture their enemies. The punishment is carried out swifty.
2. As you pointed out, belief in an eternal never ending torment turns God into a cosmic sadist. That is just such a strong contrast to the God we know as one who loves and gives to his creation.
3. Jesus mentioned hell as a place of destruction. If you destroying something, you don't keep it alive.
Matthew 10:28 specifically says body and soul will be destroyed in hell. That's from Jesus.
4. Hebrews 6:2 mentions eternal judgement. If that means a never ending ongoing judgement then that doesn't fit with scripture that talks about eternal redemption. Jesus isn't in an ongoing process of redeeming us from sin. It was a one time act on the cross that did it.
5. The strongest verses suggesting an eternal lake of fire hell is in Revelation. You have to be really careful with Revelation because it is a book deep with symbols and not meant to be taken 100% literally.
6. Fire is physical and hell is a spiritual realm. When we die, our spirits are released from the physical body so it doesn't seem logical to me that God would put the lost back in a physical form that can be burned up but not destroyed. If hell is eternal, it wouldn't be like having a physical body burning on fire.
7. The traditional view of hell suggests that everyone gets the same horrific punishment. The lost person who pays their taxes , gives to charity and doesn't hurt anyone is tormented just the same as Hitler. That doesn't make sense either because why even have the Great White Throne judgement if you are screwed anyways? It would be pointless. Verses like Luke 12:47-48 suggest that there are degrees of punishment so Hitler's time in hell may be longer than someone who is just an atheist.
8. Also, there are references to hell that translate as the garbage dump where garbage was burned up. It's possible that the authors of the Bible used their same references to symbolically describe a final punishment that you can't come back from. The thought of no longer existing when you can have eternal life instead is saddening enough.
Oddly enough, jeff, for the first time I think, I agree with 99% of what you have to say. Surprise!
The one wrinkle is most Christian who follow this rapture/millennium stuff believe God will give us glorified physical bodies like Jesus i.e. flesh and bone but no blood. I've heard it taught repeatedly that everyone gets these glorified bodies, the just and the unjust. Those found justly worthy ala Revelation will live on the new earth. It has been variously described as the entire planet of earth regenerated to look like Eden and will be solid land with no oceans. But those who are adulterers, fornicators, cowards, liars, etc. have their part in the lake of fire which burns eternally and these glorified bodies were fashioned to be able to burn for eternity without ever burning up. That's why the fire in the lake is not ordinary fire that combusts and then goes out. It is a special kind of supernatural fire that burns forever so presumably the special glorified bodies which cannot die will be burning forever as well. This is what I have been taught anyway. Other than the unjustness of God-issue you raise do you see any other difficulties with this view?
How exactly can one perish, if they are burning in hell for eternity, at this point they have eternal life, just one where they are suffering.
I have heard prominent fundamentalists here say that is the very definition of "perish" Biblically-speaking: to NOT disappear but to suffer eternal "destruction". That is what the Bible means when it says,
Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish [suffer destruction eternally]but have eternal life.
For one who has positioned himself high up in life where the microphone must be turned off at the present moment to rant and rave on those airwaves for the radio program and tv sets, the internet also...
A man who became a Christian minister of which he preached the Gospel as best he could never relented in his attempts to tell others that a real hot hell existed because he went there when he was sent.
He briefly died and went to a literal burning hell that was as hot as a briquette and you want to write a bunch of nonsense that is your own philosophy that merits nothing but he would say you're apostate.
You have done everything you could with the rest of your accounts to sway others away from God because you are headed to hell anyway you look at it bud, you will never change: you never changed it.
Yeah ok, the guy that says he went to a burning hell, I say he is a liar, but I should believe him right?
Whose that clown that said he went to heaven?
O Yeah, O''ll Jesse Duplantis, yeah, I am going to base what I believe on Jessi and some dude that done went and claimed he been to hell, lol.
All these great prophets who teach Satanism right from jump street, the only God they got is money and selling books.
The blind leading the blind.
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