Asked A Dozen Times: Why Does Hell Have To Contain Fire??? (church, bible)

[Derek41]

Hellfire is obviously the most agonizing form of punishment that God could inflict, but the punishment certainly does not befit the crime -in most cases.
You forget to mention "the worm that never dies" as well, as the flesh is being eaten away.
People that have NDE's/ visions have seen all of this, along with Demons tormenting and spearing the spiritual bodies etc, the torment is insufferable to the extreme.
These people who have been there have asked the Lord "why are they there?" and "can't you let them out", and He has responded "it is too late", and "they know why they are there".
Why it is so bad, and so many billions are apparently there- screaming at the top of their lungs for mercy, does not make sense for sure.

[Hannibal Flavius]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

I posed this question a dozen times in the Christian forum and no Christian has ever been able to answer.

Please give us logical explanation why God simply has to have us burning in fire in hell eternally or He's really pissed. The Bible gives no origin or explanation for fire in hell. Why couldn't God have created a twilight zone where sinners just exist in darkness or gray mist. Why explicitly does a soul have to burn in fire in order to satisfy God? What's the purpose? Just to make a sinner suffer the most extreme pain God can inflict on them? Isn't God able to devise pain that's 10x's worse than the most painful punishment fire can inflict? Please explain.

The only alternative is that this "fire in hell" thing was an invention of the early Church to scare pagans into joining Christianity.

The logical explanation is that Christians are reading a Jewish book that has idioms of the feast of Tabernacles and what it means not to receive the rain on the feast of Tabernacles.


The rain promised is not rain, and the fire that the rain quenches is not real fire. All the scriptures of hell could be summed up right here in Zechariah 14 when it is speaking of the rain of the feast of Tabernacles that is not rain, but spirit. This spirit falls and renders the person immortal and his body is no longer dying because he has a new body.


People receive a seed for the third harvest of God as the smallest seed of all, and they have to keep Tabernacles and pray for the rain, this rain transforms their body because the rain falls on the seed and the seed dies and bears fruit of a new immortal body. But if you don't receive the rain of Sukkot, you don't receive the spirit in order for your seed to die and bear fruit, and so your worm will never die as a seed will sit there for thousands of years being alive until somebody puts water on it and then it explodes, dies and become a new creature, a plant, a tree or wheat.


If you don't receive the rain of Sukkot, your worm will never die, and you will never receive the rain to quench the fire that burns in your body. Being tormented is to be alive living amongst immortals but not as they are.




The Destroyers of Jerusalem Destroyed
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.


All Nations will Worship the King


16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by nateswift

Metaphor for refining?

That would presuppose that infinite / eternal punishment had an objective, such as rehabilitation, purification, or ennoblement. Since it's infinite, by definition it has no objective other than to cause as much suffering and agony and hopelessness as possible.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Isn't it mostly the fundies who still believe in a literal lake of fire? I figured most Christians didn't believe this any more. I don't even believe the pain anyone's going to feel will be physical at all. I believe it will be more along the lines of deep remorse and mental anguish, and I don't see it as being eternal in nature. Maybe I'm the odd one out; I don't know.

As you can guess, Katzpur, opinions are all over the place. Here's poll results from the Barna Group on what people believe:

Four out of ten adults believe that hell is 'a state of eternal separation from God's presence' (39 percent) and one-third (32 percent) say it is 'an actual place of torment and suffering where people's souls go after death.' A third perspective, that one in eight adults believe, is that 'hell is just a symbol of an unknown bad outcome after death' (13 percent). Other respondents were 'not sure' or said that they do not believe in an afterlife (16 percent)" (October 21, 2003).

Note that these are individuals, not what the Church teaches but again, ask 10 pastors and you'll likely get 10 different responses ranging from eternal torment through annihilation and onto universal salvation. I googled "Will sinners really burn in hell?" and most of the responses from websites like "BibleInfo.com and "ChristianAnswers.com" and the webmasters land in the middle-of-the-road with annihilation, like this

God cannot allow sin, crime and violence to continue to cause suffering and death in this world. But He is not one to torture His children. So He does the most loving thing He can do, He destroys them eternally. The Bible says, "he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time"

How long does hell burn for? | Bibleinfo.com

I think that as Americans continue to drift away from Christianity because of the doctrine of eternal torment more and more pastors and TV ministers will gravitate to the center as well and opt for annihilation as the most expedient solution to a thorny problem.

And atheists believe in a form of annihilation anyway so...no loss.

[Derek41]

Originally Posted by mordant

That would presuppose that infinite / eternal punishment had an objective, such as rehabilitation, purification, or ennoblement. Since it's infinite, by definition it has no objective other than to cause as much suffering and agony and hopelessness as possible.

This is important as well.
Those that are in Hell know they are never going to get out, and that has been communicated through NDE's and visions as well.
Those in Hell have stated "tell my loved ones not to come here", knowing that their own fate is sealed, and that they cannot do anything about it. (a form of Stockholm Syndrome really).
The level of despair is thus insufferable as well.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Derek41

This is important as well.
Those that are in Hell know they are never going to get out, and that has been communicated through NDE's and visions as well.
Those in Hell have stated "tell my loved ones not to come here", knowing that their own fate is sealed, and that they cannot do anything about it. (a form of Stockholm Syndrome really).
The level of despair is thus insufferable as well.

This is total baloney. The ONLY people who have said they experienced fire and demons in NDE's in YouTube videos are Christians w/ fanciful titles like "Soldier for Christ777" and "Living For Christ". Obviously this stuff is pure propaganda to try to terrify people into accepting Jesus and they never learn that you cannot frighten a person into accepting Jesus with eternal torment. The people being preached to are just going to turn off and walk away like they're doing now.

But thank you, Derek, you helped to get this conversation back on track. Christians are extremely fond of doing up flashy ugly videos of people burning in hell:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu6pMGEIsNc

But why would God require a person to writhe in unbearable agony for eternity just for a thought crime of not believing in Jesus? A person cannot force themselves to believe in Jesus even if they wanted to if it's just not in their nature. So why can't God just banish such non-believers to a neutral place of dark mist with no fire? Why does God feel compelled to make a person burn to a crisp over and over for all eternity? It just doesn't make any sense. Unless, again, eternal torment in fire was invented to scare people into accepting Jesus as Derek is trying to do right this moment.

[Thoreau424]

"Fire" is one of those quick, simple words that instantaneously gives rise to both destructive images (burning, obliteration) and feelings (pain and danger). Humans learn to react to fire from an early age. So, it's easy to throw around that word as a quick way to scare others. Just think of the classic warning of yelling "fire" in a crowded room.

To make Hell scarier for many, it makes simple sense to link it to fire. The Bible though seems to stress more being separated from God as the most relevant aspect of the place. Leave it to man though to put his stamp and fingerprint on matters. Man can't resist playing God and adding his 2000 cents worth. What would pure and unadulterated Christianity look like if man didn't get in the way of biblical basics? Much of the time all we see is the extra baggage we've thrown in.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by mordant

That would presuppose that infinite / eternal punishment had an objective, such as rehabilitation, purification, or ennoblement. Since it's infinite, by definition it has no objective other than to cause as much suffering and agony and hopelessness as possible.

If it WERE infinite, you would be correct. other than that, you are spot on.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by Derek41

This is important as well.
Those that are in Hell know they are never going to get out, and that has been communicated through NDE's and visions as well.
Those in Hell have stated "tell my loved ones not to come here", knowing that their own fate is sealed, and that they cannot do anything about it. (a form of Stockholm Syndrome really).
The level of despair is thus insufferable as well.

Try not to rub your hands together as you say this.

[Thoreau424]

Originally Posted by nateswift

Try not to rub your hands together as you say this.

Might lead to spontaneous combustion