Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If god really did exist couldn't he just let a few of the people living in heaven make an appearance at the Super Bowl halftime show?
I think a duet featuring John Lennon and George Washington would sway even the most ardent atheists to change their minds.
At the risk of appearing to validate Vizio, I have to say that the problem with this is it's so outside of normal experience that it would be far easier to believe that this were two skilled actors working with great staging than that it was really John Lennon and George Washington.
We don't live in a world like Middle Earth where the supernatural and immortal is a regular part of everyday life, and therefore indisputably a feature of everyone's shared reality. It would take this kind of thing happening all over the place all the time to break through the understandable skeptical resistance to believing it that people have built up during a lifetime of unsubstantiated fantastic claims that are never visibly demonstrated.
The problem, then, is not a lack of faith or a stubborn resistance but a real lack of proof -- unambiguous, ubiquitous, lavish proof. That is exactly why faith is demanded and evidence-based beliefs are pooh-poohed as ignoble and unreasonable.
It'd be more efficient and effective, if god woke up tomorrow realizing he's been a turd for hiding coyly in the shadows, to simply reveal himself personally to everyone at once in whatever way each person needs to be utterly convinced. This would be absolutely trivial for him to do as an all-powerful and all-knowing god. Since he's also all-loving and benevolent he could also just blanket absolve everyone instantly and cancel all his silly and confusing rule-systems and admit what his conduct until now actually reveals about him, which is that he doesn't really care what we do. We're free to do as we wish and figure it out for ourselves.
Or he could say, you know, I really do care about some things ... I really hate shellfish and mixed fibers and anyone having contact with menstrual flow and work on Saturdays. And who is boinking whom, as I really can't get any sleep up here with all those people shrieking "oh GOD!!!" at me all the time, unless they are married, which I find somehow soothing.
If people had personal experience of god and it was experienced in shared reality such that others would agree they had had the same experience and information then we'd have something to discuss by way of actual proof.
You would think...yet after a few days of Moses being out of camp they made a golden calf to worship.
It's a story Vizio, nothing more. You read way too much into these things.
Quote:
But look at the audacity of what you're saying. You refuse to believe because he doesn't show himself to your expectations.
Audacity? How you figure? Do you believe in Santa Clause as well simply because children believe he exists? I don't "refuse" to believe, I don't believe because there is no evidence whatsoever of a god. And there are a lot of people like me who actually WOULD believe if they were presented with said evidence. You are so steeped in your fantasy you can't see it for what it really is.
At the risk of appearing to validate Vizio, I have to say that the problem with this is it's so outside of normal experience that it would be far easier to believe that this were two skilled actors working with great staging than that it was really John Lennon and George Washington.
We don't live in a world like Middle Earth where the supernatural and immortal is a regular part of everyday life, and therefore indisputably a feature of everyone's shared reality. It would take this kind of thing happening all over the place all the time to break through the understandable skeptical resistance to believing it that people have built up during a lifetime of unsubstantiated fantastic claims that are never visibly demonstrated.
The problem, then, is not a lack of faith or a stubborn resistance but a real lack of proof -- unambiguous, ubiquitous, lavish proof. That is exactly why faith is demanded and evidence-based beliefs are pooh-poohed as ignoble and unreasonable.
It'd be more efficient and effective, if god woke up tomorrow realizing he's been a turd for hiding coyly in the shadows, to simply reveal himself personally to everyone at once in whatever way each person needs to be utterly convinced. This would be absolutely trivial for him to do as an all-powerful and all-knowing god. Since he's also all-loving and benevolent he could also just blanket absolve everyone instantly and cancel all his silly and confusing rule-systems and admit what his conduct until now actually reveals about him, which is that he doesn't really care what we do. We're free to do as we wish and figure it out for ourselves.
Or he could say, you know, I really do care about some things ... I really hate shellfish and mixed fibers and anyone having contact with menstrual flow and work on Saturdays. And who is boinking whom, as I really can't get any sleep up here with all those people shrieking "oh GOD!!!" at me all the time, unless they are married, which I find somehow soothing.
If people had personal experience of god and it was experienced in shared reality such that others would agree they had had the same experience and information then we'd have something to discuss by way of actual proof.
Nice post, couldn't agree more with all of it, especially the bolded part.
God showed Himself to His chosen people. The Bible is a record of those events. Humans refused to obey God's commandments. Then God didn't do what humans wanted. God is a poor subject, He doesn't obey humans. As a last resort, God came into the world as a man (Jesus). Still people didn't believe Him. Then, after humans murdered God, He assumed a policy of nonintervention. Chances are God will never return to earth. He learned His lesson the hard way. It is all about who is in charge. If humans don't obey God's commandments, then God will stay away. There is another issue that no one knows about. God created the universe as a prison for his fallen angel (Satan, Lucifer or whatever you want to call him). Then, God created paradise during the dinosaur era about 65 million years ago. After the fall of paradise, humans evolved. Here we are the not so wonderful homo sapiens. There is more to the story, but I don't want to stir things up.
if god wants people to know he exists why not just show himself?
or at least send one of his representatives (angels) to appear before man?
to leave no doubt in anyone's mind that he is real? what is he afraid of?
that way no one can have any doubt. because as it stands there is still
not one shred of proof god exists beyond people's imagination and superstition.
that is a wicked wish; for you are tempting God and mocking Him by requiring
that He manifest His presence before you before you worship Him. The signs
and miracles of God are His to distribute when He sees fit. The risen Christ said
to Thomas: you have believed because you have seen, but blessed are they who
have not seen, yet believe. You may see signs during your life or not, but it is
for our own good that He is not finished yet with this state of man and nature.
To those who believe, there is already no doubt. The reward of faith is to see
what you believe, not to believe what you see.
"This is creation. All that is going on today, only men are blind to see it. They can not pause long enough to go out into the wilderness where God has provided every sparrow enough to eat and to spare, and contemplate for even an hour the wonderful world they live in."
----John Muir
John Muir saw God. But then he discovered where to look.
What John Muir sees is the natural world and the result of millions of years of evolution, not creation or god.
If by any chance a god (or gods) does exist he/she/it would certainly not be the god depicted in the bible, quran
or torah because science has thoroughly debunked biblical creationism, has debunked the premise of a young
earth, flat earth, etc.
Last edited by cisco kid; 01-23-2015 at 05:05 PM..
God showed Himself to His chosen people. The Bible is a record of those events. Humans refused to obey God's commandments. Then God didn't do what humans wanted. God is a poor subject, He doesn't obey humans. As a last resort, God came into the world as a man (Jesus). Still people didn't believe Him. Then, after humans murdered God, He assumed a policy of nonintervention. Chances are God will never return to earth. He learned His lesson the hard way. It is all about who is in charge. If humans don't obey God's commandments, then God will stay away. There is another issue that no one knows about. God created the universe as a prison for his fallen angel (Satan, Lucifer or whatever you want to call him). Then, God created paradise during the dinosaur era about 65 million years ago. After the fall of paradise, humans evolved. Here we are the not so wonderful homo sapiens. There is more to the story, but I don't want to stir things up.
Except you obviously, and why is that?
The Bible cannot stand as a historical record of any events since we know that the Flood, the Exodus, and the Tower of Babel didn't happen. The Bible's record is too poor to use as a historical document.
Why is it both believers and non believers feel they need proof? As a believer why should it matter if you feel God in your heart? For non believers they say show me, why? If they believe there is no supreme being then why ask for something impossible to produce? Believe whatever you want to, its a free country.
Why is it both believers and non believers feel they need proof? As a believer why should it matter if you feel God in your heart? For non believers they say show me, why? If they believe there is no supreme being then why ask for something impossible to produce? Believe whatever you want to, its a free country.
As a non-believer, I require proof from those who want to outlaw gay marriage because their God says its an abomination, or when a group wants their beliefs taught in public schools along side science. Those are only two reasons I require proof from those who make outrageous claims.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
