Is Minneapolis going to be the experiment for a policeless major city? (schools, dangerous)

[Teacher Terry]

The proposal is not to entirely get rid of all police. Please read what is actually being discussed.

[PrincessoftheCape]

Your average American may be of modest conscience - they don't generally steal, rape, assault, etc. - but they're no saint, either. At best, I would call them 'lawful-neutral' only in the sense that they are too terrified of the consequences of bad acts to commit them wantonly. At worst, they are heavily armed, barely-restrained animals that would quickly devolve to their basest instincts if prompted (one need only sit down and watch Youtube to see how easily provoked into screaming/belligerence/violence that seemingly average suburbanites are).

I'm not huge fan of the police - I think, at least for the past 2-3 decades, it's been a line of work that's extremely appealing to thugs, goons, jocks, and just general low-IQ headcases. Moreover, it's a field that is infatuated with itself, and drunk on its own glory - the police are cavalier, loud, obnoxious, convinced of their own innate heroism, eager to shield bad eggs within their organizations, and devoted to the notion that their lives are worth more than everyone else's.

But I acknowledge that they are the lesser of two evils. And nothing about the death of George Floyd - murder as it certainly was - will convince me otherwise (and I outright reject the notion that Floyd was a "gentle giant." Floyd was a convicted, violent felon. That's not normal. That's not peaceful). You know what the alternative is? Rural Mexico - vicious, powerful, territorial gangs driving all levels of society, dispensing their own form of 'justice.' That's what happens when the police are absent or corrupt - criminals fill the vacuum. And criminals WOULD fill the vacuum if Minneapolis truly "disbanded" the police.

No, people are not going to default to their overall good nature as BLM and the city council have proclaimed, because people aren't good. They're neutral during stable periods, and behave better when they fear retribution - retribution that involves things like handcuffs and cell bars. If that wall is removed, anticipate chaos and mass bloodletting. Oh, and be ready for the urban blight of the north side of St. Louis and most of Detroit. Because sane people? Aren't going to want any part of it. Sane people - regardless of political persuasion - will leave town. They may not be good people themselves, but they will certainly go to places where their lives aren't in constant danger, and their property values aren't plummeting.

[PrincessoftheCape]

Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

The proposal is not to entirely get rid of all police. Please read what is actually being discussed.

Lol, there is no proposal. There is literally no proposal - just a slogan, and some loose notion that the money spent on the police could be diverted to "community improvement programs."

Meanwhile, the hoods who just finished burning whole neighborhoods of your "fair Midwestern paradise" to the ground are chomping at the bit to get out there and do it again, this time without any fear of tear gas reprisals.

[Cinema Cat]

After overthrowing the king and his government, the French Revolutionaries introduced the Committee of Public Safety: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commit..._Public_Safety

Which brought about the Reign of Terror: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

I guess Minneapolis intends to replace policing with revolutionary justice.

[llowllevellowll]

Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape

Your average American may be of modest conscience - they don't generally steal, rape, assault, etc. - but they're no saint, either. At best, I would call them 'lawful-neutral' only in the sense that they are too terrified of the consequences of bad acts to commit them wantonly. At worst, they are heavily armed, barely-restrained animals that would quickly devolve to their basest instincts if prompted (one need only sit down and watch Youtube to see how easily provoked into screaming/belligerence/violence that seemingly average suburbanites are).

I'm not huge fan of the police - I think, at least for the past 2-3 decades, it's been a line of work that's extremely appealing to thugs, goons, jocks, and just general low-IQ headcases. Moreover, it's a field that is infatuated with itself, and drunk on its own glory - the police are cavalier, loud, obnoxious, convinced of their own innate heroism, eager to shield bad eggs within their organizations, and devoted to the notion that their lives are worth more than everyone else's.

But I acknowledge that they are the lesser of two evils. And nothing about the death of George Floyd - murder as it certainly was - will convince me otherwise (and I outright reject the notion that Floyd was a "gentle giant." Floyd was a convicted, violent felon. That's not normal. That's not peaceful). You know what the alternative is? Rural Mexico - vicious, powerful, territorial gangs driving all levels of society, dispensing their own form of 'justice.' That's what happens when the police are absent or corrupt - criminals fill the vacuum. And criminals WOULD fill the vacuum if Minneapolis truly "disbanded" the police.

No, people are not going to default to their overall good nature as BLM and the city council have proclaimed, because people aren't good. They're neutral during stable periods, and behave better when they fear retribution - retribution that involves things like handcuffs and cell bars. If that wall is removed, anticipate chaos and mass bloodletting. Oh, and be ready for the urban blight of the north side of St. Louis and most of Detroit. Because sane people? Aren't going to want any part of it. Sane people - regardless of political persuasion - will leave town. They may not be good people themselves, but they will certainly go to places where their lives aren't in constant danger, and their property values aren't plummeting.

I'm appreciating parts of your post because I think they're a thoughtful view from the middle and that's where most people reside ideologically. Your assessment of the average, angry person and police officer are both dead-on.

I potentially felt that the suburban parts of you underestimate the criminal culture within our police forces, but you have definitely given me something to contemplate, so thank you.

With police departments, I think that there's an implied quid pro quo as it relates to what police officers are able to get away with so long as they help criminalize the black community (for now, later it might be or might also be something else), all but assuring that they don't rise up and find some justice (or retribution) for the obvious transgressions that occurred.

And many whites miss such a big part of this because we've been programmed not to see it. We are taught to say that we're innocent because slavery was x amount of years ago and our ancestors have passed away. But what we are guilty of (primarily because of these programmed talking points) is a failure to respond to, report, or protest the bizarre double standards that exist in our communities and theirs. Absolutely bizarre and seemingly obvious double standards. And for that, we have always been complicit in the crime.

So then what? I've always thought that meaningful reform would be the answer and what I tend to see is a generational unwillingness on the part of the establishment to budge on certain antiquated social issues and I'm always left wondering if its ignorance on their part or something else.

Essentially, if this gets out of hand, I think it will be because we failed to respond to this rather than because we did.

[vision33r]

Who actually pays taxes, that's who the city and state should be listening to.

[cttransplant85]

Originally Posted by Teacher Terry

The proposal is to redirect some of the police funding to services that can help people. Cops can’t work with people that are mentally ill, etc. There will still be a police force.

This is false. The proposal is to go totally policeless.

[llowllevellowll]

Originally Posted by vision33r

Who actually pays taxes, that's who the city and state should be listening to.

Everyone pays taxes. Do you mean only property taxes? Well, why should someone who owns a home that's only worth $82,000 have the same amount of say as someone who owns a home that's worth $1.8 million? Notice the slippery slope that happens when you attempt to be exclusive? The truth is that it always leads to the elite classes consolidating power. Most people don't actually want that.

[mascoma]

What's happening to property values there? Is anyone trying to sell their house and get out of there? I wouldn't live in a city without cops!

[PrincessoftheCape]

Originally Posted by llowllevellowll

We are taught to say that we're innocent because slavery was x amount of years ago and our ancestors have passed away.

I was not taught that - it's something I've always believed. I am innocent.

First of all, the vast majority of my forebears are French Canadian and Irish, most of whom were not present for the American Civil War, let alone slave society. We're also almost exclusively Yankees, which even further removes us from the guilty party. So even if I accepted the idea that people are 'responsible' for the actions of their ancestors - and I do not - mine are not culpable.

Second, statistically, African Americans do account for a higher proportion of crime in this country than any other race. This does not mean that blacks commit more crimes than whites, but that - based on population statistics - they are doing more than their expected share. You can attribute that to upbringing, inner city culture, or even the default, go-to 'the system is racist' play all you like - but it doesn't erase the fact that when people encounter African Americans in the U.S., a minor amount of heightened concern is not unwarranted (there's giving a person a fair shake, and there's keeping both eyes open. I tend to believe that smart people quietly defer to the latter). You cannot blame people for an honest reaction based on something that is true.

In addition to the above, elements of African American society do themselves no great favor by embracing 'thug culture.' There is a heavy push amongst portions of black society to project a very 'hard' - and even threatening - image to the outside world. Whites do not bear any responsibility for this elective behavior - we neither foisted it on young black men, nor do we continue to prop up gang-banger rap music, militant, overtly racist leaders/icons like Al Sharpton, Spike Lee etc. That's all home-grown, and it's damaging to efforts to normalize relations between races.****

Finally, I have never oppressed anyone directly, and have no plans to. I deny any implication of collective responsibility - I don't owe anyone so much as a 'sorry,' let alone some huge, false, disgraceful dollop of white guilt. I cannot be talked into it, and I certainly cannot be shamed into it.

Essentially, if this gets out of hand, I think it will be because we failed to respond to this rather than because we did.

If this 'gets out of hand,' it's going to be a second civil war - a very, very short civil war. And, I hate to break this to you, but the progressive half of the country is going to lose, and lose big (as in: being forcibly driven from the country). In some theoretical race-fueled war, the people throwing Molotov cocktails and screeching about injustice are going to be completely bulldozed by the army and most of middle America. 'We've' only let things get to this point because we are so incredibly tolerant... but everything has its limits. Push too many buttons, and the extremely loud - but very inexperienced militarily - faction isn't going to be a faction in this country anymore.





****It must be stated, of course, that no two people are alike. We're talking about patterns of behavior across a wide spectrum; not necessarily even the rule, but often the loud and noticeable exceptions to the rule. But this also happens to be the same crowd of people who just burned down significant portions of American cities, leaving many African Americans both puzzled and embarrassed that a certain, small segment of their community cannot seem to sit down and shut up. I don't take my cues as a white person from David Duke or the KKK; why should most blacks - let alone the rest of the country - listen to, respect, or even tolerate the most extremist, violent, hostile, and unrealistic faction in the other camp? BLM shouldn't be getting air time as the "representatives" of a culture - they should be getting booed off the national stage by all corners.