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The only thing I would however add is that every student must do internships, paid or unpaid, every year. It is a MUST if you dream of the possibility of having a job on graduation.
Not a possibility for some of us who go back to school in mid-life for a career change and already work full-time to support ourselves. I'd like to think we'll manage without a slew of unpaid or low-paying internships. Fortunately, the things I'm hearing from some others recently in that same boat indicate the internships aren't nearly as important as some might want people to think.
Frankly, I view internships primarily as simply another ploy on the part of businesses to get people to work for them for free. At my point in life, that isn't going to happen, but I know how to network and that's every bit as important.
(I fully expect to be attacked by trolls for this post.)
Also, English degrees can be the ticket to a lot of fields, not just teaching. But knowing that might require people around here to actually do a little research, so I'm sure it isn't going to happen.
Even if the employment rate for English majors is 100%, that says nothing about whether the degree is worth it. After all, anyone can be employed if they really lower their expectations. In evaluating whether a degree is worth it, you have to look at whether the people with that background get a job they couldn't have gotten straight out of high school and also look at how much they are able to advance due to that background. If all you can get is an office job for $35k/yr with your degree giving you no special advantage in moving up in the company, then what was the point of going to college?
Who said that was all you can get? And that can be said for anybody with any degree really. How many underemployed or unemployed engineers venture through here complaining about their job prospects? I see a fair amount. According to your statement here, I guess they, too, should be asking what the point was of going to college.
Aren't you unemployed? What is your degree in? I have a friend with a BA in English in the marketing field probably making around $60k/yr about six years out of college. Is she or her education worth more than you? After all, you're unemployed and she's earning $60k with her experience/education. Do you see my point? Your degree is worth as much as the value you place on it. There is no magical, concrete value for any particular degree. Obviously, if you have a very unique skill set, you'd be more marketable and valuable in the job market. However, it's not to say that you don't have any value if you fall outside of that select career field. There are plenty of other jobs that must be done.
I have a bottom-of-the-barrel job, contracted warehouse labor that's only 20-30 hrs per week, sometimes less than that.
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I have a friend with a BA in English in the marketing field probably making around $60k/yr about six years out of college. Is she or her education worth more than you?
6 years out of college is 10 years out of high school (assuming she spend 4 years in college). Anyone who is average in intelligence and fairly motivated could be making more than that if they skipped college and spent 10 years in the workforce. Also, how much of ceiling is there on the earnings of people in the marketing field? And what about marketing is so intricate that only someone with a college education could do it?
Yes, she makes more than me, currently. She's also 5 years ahead of me and I haven't started a real job yet. How is that relevant to the discussion, though? I never said that I'm better than her.
6 years out of college is 10 years out of high school (assuming she spend 4 years in college). Anyone who is average in intelligence and fairly motivated could be making more than that if they skipped college and spent 10 years in the workforce. Also, how much of ceiling is there on the earnings of people in the marketing field? And what about marketing is so intricate that only someone with a college education could do it?
Yes, she makes more than me, currently. She's also 5 years ahead of me and I haven't started a real job yet. How is that relevant to the discussion, though? I never said that I'm better than her.
There are opportunity costs with college, I won't deny that. Could she be making more? Possibly. Would she be as remotely competitive without her degree (from a tier 1 school mind you) in today's work force? Quite possibly not. Now she has a degree plus six years of post college experience. That's pretty darn good in the grand scheme of things. Imagine where she'll be mid-career, assuming she continues to work her way up. $80k? $100k? $120k? Pfft, I'd take it in a heartbeat, having come from a pretty low income family. That's more money than my family has ever seen.
BTW, $60k is nothing to shrug at. I bet the majority of posters on this forum would be content with that kind of salary. If that doesn't seem to be enough for you, then set the bar even higher. Apparently you're going to seriously need to step up your game though.
Not a possibility for some of us who go back to school in mid-life for a career change and already work full-time to support ourselves. I'd like to think we'll manage without a slew of unpaid or low-paying internships. Fortunately, the things I'm hearing from some others recently in that same boat indicate the internships aren't nearly as important as some might want people to think.
Frankly, I view internships primarily as simply another ploy on the part of businesses to get people to work for them for free. At my point in life, that isn't going to happen, but I know how to network and that's every bit as important.
(I fully expect to be attacked by trolls for this post.)
Internship is of significant value to a 21 year old graduating from college who does not have a relevant work experience as it shows they are proactive and sincere about their career with the additional benefit that they have worked in a professional environment. It is common sense that someone working FT and pursuing a degree on the side would not leave the FT job and do a summer internship.
And frankly, you don't seem to have worked in very professional corporations. I just hosted a couple interns this year, they all were very well paid and gained experience that challenged them everyday and amazed them at how much they learned and grew as a professional during their internship. They would be extremely proud of what they learned and rightfully boast for the reminder of their college term.
"6 years out of college is 10 years out of high school (assuming she spend 4 years in college). Anyone who is average in intelligence and fairly motivated could be making more than that if they skipped college and spent 10 years in the workforce."
That might be true but at the same point many jobs require a college education. It's harder to go back as time goes on. Eventually if you do not get one and policies change you can be shut out of jobs. I know people with decades of experience that cannot find work due to a lack of a degree. I've worked in place in the past where salary management worked at least 53 hours a week. We copied much of what the competition does. If the competition said management requires a degree then how exactly can someone working 53 hours a week go back to school full time to complete a degree?!? These days you need a bachelors degree to be a department manager at Target (go to target yourself and ask)
"If all you can get is an office job for $35k/yr with your degree giving you no special advantage in moving up in the company, then what was the point of going to college?"
Because eventually most professions want a degree. That's why. I have a good friend that went to a small town for 25k with a high degree. Guess what happened later? An opportunity opened up in another place and now he's making 60k. Companies don't want to hire people that are already making high amounts because how would they keep them? Buy low sell high works in the stock market as a basic stragegy and works in the business world all the time.
I live in south east Mass and I went to a town auction of surplus property. There were bidders for trucks 20 years old from central NH! Why bother? Well if they have a good mechanic they can use the parts or mount a plow on it to plow snow on the winter. My brother has a friend that runs a tree removal company. He went all the way down to Florida to buy equipement because it was cheaper, even factoring in the gas and time to get there and back. If a business is willing to outsource to India or China for pennies on the dollar then certainly they are more apt to hire someone making 20-30k and bring them up to 60k.
Basically it can be said that internships might be things so small it is not important or so large that they should have been paid. Unpaid internships cannot be taken by people in the sense that they are not legally protected. If an intern gets hurt at work will the insurance company cover it? The answer is no because no policy specifically details what an internship legally is. Lawsuits have changed this to mean that intern are going to get paid but not all places can afford to pay so the number of internships is shrinking. Now it's now to pretty much volunteering. In a sense for quite some time it has been free labor to organizations and doesn't cost a school that much in time. Where I went they are strongly working on making them ALL paid.
Money isn't everything. I have a friend that can pull 90k maybe 110k and for years he was 1099'd without health insurance from his employer. Meanwhile a friend at walmart pulled maybe 27k and had insurance (not a huge plan mind you). Outside of food and energy I see a fair amount dropping in price. This housing recovery isn't happening folks, retail isn't doing that much better either. I've seen rents for apartments that haven't moved in nearly 12 years. Recently I went into a supermarket change that has prices practically 25% off of what their competitors charge. We have deflation. When the only way businesses have to attract business is lowering prices over and over again it makes a significant impact.
"It is common sense that someone working FT and pursuing a degree on the side would not leave the FT job and do a summer internship."
Depends on the qualifications of the work vs if the school accepts it. I know of some that will take the experience as credit but it depends how much it really relates. Someone in a criminal justice program that works at a pet store full time might have trouble while someone in medical school while working at a vets office probably not.
Last edited by mdovell; 12-24-2013 at 05:46 PM..
Reason: adding more
Internship is of significant value to a 21 year old graduating from college who does not have a relevant work experience as it shows they are proactive and sincere about their career with the additional benefit that they have worked in a professional environment. It is common sense that someone working FT and pursuing a degree on the side would not leave the FT job and do a summer internship.
You'd be surprised by the number of people who have tried to tell me otherwise.
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And frankly, you don't seem to have worked in very professional corporations. I just hosted a couple interns this year, they all were very well paid and gained experience that challenged them everyday and amazed them at how much they learned and grew as a professional during their internship. They would be extremely proud of what they learned and rightfully boast for the reminder of their college term.
I don't recall saying this happened anyplace where I worked. It's happened to the sons and daughters of a number of people I know, however. These young people were often given work to do that had nothing to do with what they were actually studying. A couple of them spent the entire summer doing nothing but making copies and filing, when neither of those things had any relation to the careers they were pursuing. Besides, I have an issue with the idea of expecting people to work for free, especially if it means there is one less paying job available in a market that already has more people than jobs.
I originally went to college back in the Eighties when most students did NOT do internships, and it's funny how people managed to graduate and get hired into lucrative careers anyway...
BTW, $60k is nothing to shrug at. I bet the majority of posters on this forum would be content with that kind of salary. If that doesn't seem to be enough for you, then set the bar even higher. Apparently you're going to seriously need to step up your game though.
I'm not shrugging at $60k. That's a solid income. But you can make that much as a nurse, which only requires 4 years of education/training after high school. You can make that much and more by going to vocational school after high school. I don't think her example is any good evidence that the college system is working.
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