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I'll stick to my usual position, and say that it's a variant of Cfb climate.
Just about all of it's rain is from cold fronts -not a Cfa trait.
Just because it lacks one Cfa trait, doesn't mean it's a Cfb climate. Have you forgotten the hot summers and the aridity? It shouldn't be black or white. And you shouldn't base the Cfb climate on one characteristic (cold front rain). Even continental climates get rain from cold fronts. They're not Cfb's now aren't they?
I find it strange you're now arguing that it's a Csa climate. I could've sworn that you were against the idea that southeast inland NSW cities are Mediterranean, considering their rainfall percentage between seasons (in which you said your city is "more Mediterranean" because it has contrasting rainfall between its shoulder seasons).
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Originally Posted by Joe90
You don't have an argument, only rigid adherence to rules. It's no accident that you didn't first check precipitation days, as you didn't seek an understanding of Corowa's climate, but were only interested in following a formula -a bureaucrats approach to climate. This forum might be more interesting if some offered something other than the opinions of Koppen
(Discreetly) calling someone ignorant or misinformed wouldn't make you "right" all of a sudden.
He has a different take on climates than you. You also have a subjective opinion here. They're no more or less of an opinion than Baba's. So let's not get ahead of ourselves. P.S. Look at Trewartha and Koppen. Two astute guys who have their own interpretation of climates. So even we can have our own interpretation.
Just because it lacks one Cfa trait, doesn't mean it's a Cfb climate. Have you forgotten the hot summers and the aridity? It shouldn't be black or white. And you shouldn't base the Cfb climate on one characteristic (cold front rain). Even continental climates get rain from cold fronts. They're not Cfb's now aren't they?
I find it strange you're now arguing that it's a Csa climate. I could've sworn that you were against the idea that southeast inland NSW cities are Mediterranean, considering their rainfall percentage between seasons (in which you said your city is "more Mediterranean" because it has contrasting rainfall between its shoulder seasons).
Continental climates aren't C climates, so they could be expected to see cold fronts in summer. Cfa and Csa climates are the warm end of C climates, so I don't think summer rainfall only from cold fronts, is a feature of either.
I think Corowa is much more Csa than Cfa (I don't think it is even remotely Cfa), but in terms of patterns, I don't see regular summer cold fronts as a Csa trait. You're saying that under Koppen, Cfa is just a default position for warm C climates that don't have a Med precip pattern -climates with no qualifying features.
My climate has a seasonal rain day ratio similar to Corowa and a more seasonal pronounced rain total, but less high pressure stability and a greater mixture of cold fronts and subtropical lows. Comparing that to Corowa, with it's clear summer high pressure dominance, but also has regular cold front visitations during summer, I would say they both have a similar degree of Mediterranean aspect to their climates.
Quote:
(Discreetly) calling someone ignorant or misinformed wouldn't make you "right" all of a sudden.
He has a different take on climates than you. You also have a subjective opinion here. They're no more or less of an opinion than Baba's. So let's not get ahead of ourselves. P.S. Look at Trewartha and Koppen. Two astute guys who have their own interpretation of climates. So even we can have our own interpretation.
I guess I just see a lack of logic and a lack of basic research -just emotive, reactive responses. I should expect more on a climate forum.
Continental climates aren't C climates, so they could be expected to see cold fronts in summer. Cfa and Csa climates are the warm end of C climates, so I don't think summer rainfall only from cold fronts, is a feature of either.
I think Corowa is much more Csa than Cfa (I don't think it is even remotely Cfa), but in terms of patterns, I don't see regular summer cold fronts as a Csa trait. You're saying that under Koppen, Cfa is just a default position for warm C climates that don't have a Med precip pattern -climates with no qualifying features.
My climate has a seasonal rain day ratio similar to Corowa and a more seasonal pronounced rain total, but less high pressure stability and a greater mixture of cold fronts and subtropical lows. Comparing that to Corowa, with it's clear summer high pressure dominance, but also has regular cold front visitations during summer, I would say they both have a similar degree of Mediterranean aspect to their climates.
I do agree that Corowa has more Csa qualities than Cfa, as with Albury and Wagga Wagga (due to their drier, hot summers and moister winters). That's the part where I disagree with Koppen. I think I made it clear in the past that he hasn't gotten Australia right.
But "Koppenly" speaking, they would still be more Cfa than Cfb. Now they do have Cfb qualities, since they get rain from cold fronts. But there are other factors that make them more Cfa and they shouldn't be completely neglected (hot summers for starters and the thunderstorms they happen to get). Are they true blue Cfa's? No. But inland NSW climates seem to be a concoction of Csa, Cfa, BSh and even Cfb. One can even argue that they're slightly wet semi-arid climates. Although I would still disagree with that notion.
I think Koppen's idea of a Cfa climate extends to those that are almost semi-arid, but not quite (think, inland Texas). So they would somehow automatically "apply" to the inland NSW cities too, although they're still rather distinct climates (i.e. cooler nights). The man should've made another climate zone for places like that, IMO.
I do agree that Corowa has more Csa qualities than Cfa, as with Albury and Wagga Wagga (due to their drier, hot summers and moister winters). That's the part where I disagree with Koppen. I think I made it clear in the past that he hasn't gotten Australia right.
But "Koppenly" speaking, they would still be more Cfa than Cfb. Now they do have Cfb qualities, since they get rain from cold fronts. But there are other factors that make them more Cfa and they shouldn't be completely neglected (hot summers for starters and the thunderstorms they happen to get). Are they true blue Cfa's? No. But inland NSW climates seem to be a concoction of Csa, Cfa, BSh and even Cfb. One can even argue that they're slightly wet semi-arid climates. Although I would still disagree with that notion.
I think Koppen's idea of a Cfa climate extends to those that are almost semi-arid, but not quite (think, inland Texas). So they would somehow automatically "apply" to the inland NSW cities too, although they're still rather distinct climates (i.e. cooler nights). The man should've made another climate zone for places like that, IMO.
Cfa is a default setting for any C summers that aren't Csa and are warmer than 22C. By ignoring cause/pattern, Koppen doesn't regard Cfa climates as having any commonality, except warm summers.
There are consistent traits in the summers of the three main C climates, which are broadly speaking -sitting upwind of semi permanent summer high pressure (Cfb), sitting under summer high pressure (Csa) and sitting downwind of summer high pressure (Cfa). Corowa/Albury etc are a combination of the first two -their summer is a mixture of sitting under the high and sitting upwind of the high pressure, yet they are grouped with climates that sit downwind of the high.
That's why I regard classification as useless -they don't seek to show climates grouped according to cause/pattern, only temperature, but then the temperature thresholds are so broad, that there's huge disparity within those groups anyway.
Cfa is a default setting for any C summers that aren't Csa and are warmer than 22C. By ignoring cause/pattern, Koppen doesn't regard Cfa climates as having any commonality, except warm summers.
Say, I have seen a map that puts these southern inland NSW/VIC locations under the Csa climate zone. But I can't seem to find it anywhere.
I'll try looking for it. It has been one of my endeavors.
I'll stick to my usual position, and say that it's a variant of Cfb climate.
Just about all of it's rain is from cold fronts -not a Cfa trait.
No rain from warm fronts? All cold fronts but no warm fronts sounds odd, like it would keep getting colder. I guess after a few days after a cold front, high pressure builds and the air warms?
There are consistent traits in the summers of the three main C climates, which are broadly speaking -sitting upwind of semi permanent summer high pressure (Cfb), sitting under summer high pressure (Csa) and sitting downwind of summer high pressure (Cfa). Corowa/Albury etc are a combination of the first two -their summer is a mixture of sitting under the high and sitting upwind of the high pressure, yet they are grouped with climates that sit downwind of the high.
the consistent Cfa trait is that it gets a humid oceanic tropical flow in the summer. The prevailing flow isn't downwind from the center of the high pressure, but perpendicular to it. Southwest for the eastern US:
No rain from warm fronts? All cold fronts but no warm fronts sounds odd, like it would keep getting colder. I guess after a few days after a cold front, high pressure builds and the air warms?
Yes, cold fronts are almost always followed by areas of high pressure here in the summer. That's why the weather is so damn variable.
No rain from warm fronts? All cold fronts but no warm fronts sounds odd, like it would keep getting colder. I guess after a few days after a cold front, high pressure builds and the air warms?
Yep, that's pretty much it, except it doesn't take a few days to clear. Cold fronts usually clear within a day in this part of the world. The low pressure system can stall though allowing southerly winds to blow over a period of days.
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Originally Posted by nei
the consistent Cfa trait is that it gets a humid oceanic tropical flow in the summer. The prevailing flow isn't downwind from the center of the high pressure, but perpendicular to it. Southwest for the eastern US:
but maybe I don't understand what you mean by downwind
Downwind isn't quite the right word. Airflow primarily as a result of the high pressure better describes my point.
Places I'm referring to in Australia -Shepparton, Corowa generally sit under the high (similar to mediterranean climate), rather than getting airflow due to high pressure like Cfa climates. When the highs weaken, it's cold fronts from the southern ocean that move in, not subtropical lows - it doesn't resemble the dynamics of Cfa climates, only average temperatures.
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I guess after a few days after a cold front, high pressure builds and the air warms?
