[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Backwards. The war on drugs is failure. You can lock away dealer / supplier one after another after another. There will be more and we'll be paying for prisons. You can make it life without parole first offense and it won't slow the supply.

Eliminating the demand is the only way.

And how is the demand created?

Why was it that heroin peaked and waned when governments were able to work together to slow the flow from the middle east and Asia? Why is it that poppies are now grown in several South American countries and Mexico and are smuggled in here but the government seems to have lost control of that?

Someone caught carrying with the intent to distribute needs to be locked up. It might not eliminate all dealers, but it might make some of the locals (who are doing this to make a quick buck) think twice. These mutts coming in from other states need to be dealt with more severely. NO appearance tickets, no slap on the wrist from a judge.

NYC -- these mutts will fire at cops because they know there's no death penalty. My friend was assassinated by drug dealers. Every few years a bunch of us petition the parole board to make certain these pieces of excrement stay locked up.

VT -- it's a matter of time before they get wise to this and shoot at any perceived threat.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

And how is the demand created?

Why was it that heroin peaked and waned when governments were able to work together to slow the flow from the middle east and Asia? Why is it that poppies are now grown in several South American countries and Mexico and are smuggled in here but the government seems to have lost control of that?

There was no real control, ever. Different drugs just became more popular than others. The clientele changed what they consumed. Shifting demand changed shifting supply. I've had friends OD on opiates as well as other drugs, all the hard drugs are bad... few get off and none I know do without wanting to AND lots of help.

Demand is created when people don't have hope and activities to keep them busy. Cutting sports, arts, job creation efforts, etc are all misguided efforts to save some money that just end up costing us more.

Not treating it like the public health issue it is will keep the problem growing. We can treat it like the societal and medical issue it is, or we can put money into locking more people up. How has that worked out? Not well. Waste of money.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by timberline742

There was no real control, ever. Different drugs just became more popular than others. The clientele changed what they consumed. Shifting demand changed shifting supply. I've had friends OD on opiates as well as other drugs, all the hard drugs are bad... few get off and none I know do without wanting to AND lots of help.

Demand is created when people don't have hope and activities to keep them busy. Cutting sports, arts, job creation efforts, etc are all misguided efforts to save some money that just end up costing us more.

Not treating it like the public health issue it is will keep the problem growing. We can treat it like the societal and medical issue it is, or we can put money into locking more people up. How has that worked out? Not well. Waste of money.

I'm not adverse to treating addiction as a health issue. That the ACA has placed substance abuse right alongside mental health coverage is a plus.

Take the heroin addicts and hand out Methadone -- trade the illicit for the drug company substitute and create jobs in clinics. But will that really be the end of the line? There'll be some other person starting up on heroin or another highly addictive opiate that will be next to get in line for treatment -- provided they don't OD first.

Demand is not always created in the way you've indicated. What did people do when they didn't have the electronic teat to keep them amused? What about the adult who became dependent on Oxycontin while injured and whose doctor is no longer writing a script for him/her?

Treatment and legal action have to exist together. Even in the 1940's the feds were going after gangs for marijuana, heroin, and opium trafficking. There was an underground back alley element about it then and drug use wasn't glorified in movies or on TV. So in addition to treatment and law enforcement, attitudes surrounding drug use has to change. To wit:

Part I: Baltimore Is the U.S. Heroin Capital - ABC News

Tom Carr, the director of the Washington/Baltimore HIDTA program — a joint federal, state and local effort — says the heroin epidemic in Baltimore dates back to the 1950s and is now an engrained part of the city's culture.

"It's an old 'heroin town,'" says Carr. "There is an appetite for heroin in Baltimore … It's accepted by all too many people down there as something that's normal behavior."

Young people need to be warned by recovering addicts of the dangers of using heroin in a drug version of 'Scared Straight'. They need to be educated, and at the same time, this might help the recovering addict with his or her own sobriety. Dealers and locals who are ferrying large quantities of illegal drugs (heroin, meth, coke, etc.) need to be jailed and have their possessions seized to help offset the cost of their incarceration. You're caught with 500 baggies in your car -- you lose your car.

[Starryskye80]

Honestly, a scared straight program will not stop teens and young adults from doing drugs.

This is NOT a new problem to Vermont. Heroin has been an epidemic since at least 1997. Should there be more treatment centers? Maybe. What I know is that in the late 90's, I was a heroin addict in California. I had a life changing event that made me realize that I needed to grow the hell up, and I put myself on a Greyhound bus to get away from the dealers and users. Detoxing on a bus sucked, but it was such a painful, horrible experience that I never wanted to go through that again. I have been clean for 14 1/2 years. No rehab. No "bupes". Addicts do not need to be pandered to.
Look at any court calender in VT. There is a specific drug court where some pretty serious crimes are dismissed or swept under the rug if the addict goes to rehab. Society did not force them to stick a needle in their arm. They CHOSE to, so they should face consequences.
As for bupes...I had a neighbor who would sell her bupes for extra money. How do I know? Because she told me! She had people in and out of her place all the time. I'm not a fan of methadone, as I lived by a methadone clinic in California, but maybe, if the state insists that addicts be treated with bupes, it should be something where the addict has to go in daily to get their "dose", rather than give them a prescription.
I also have issue with the fact that the taxpayers are paying for methadone and bupes...but I go to the ER because my gallbladder needs to be removed, and I am accused of wanting pills?! I can't even take any pain meds stronger than Tylenol 3! (and for the record...I had to go to the ER 6 times before they figured out why I was in pain).

Maybe I sound callous, but I don't care if you had a bad childhood, relationship, etc, etc. About 90% of people have the same issues!!

[ejlorge]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

NYC -- these mutts will fire at cops because they know there's no death penalty.

Besides being a not-so-thinly-veiled racist comment, it also happens to be ludicrous. (But they usually go together, don't they).

In other words, a potential cop-killer, (high on drugs no less), just before opening fire says to himself something like; "Golly, if I shoot this cop I'll only do 30 years to life in prison because I know the death penalty is illegal here in the state of New York. Ah, what the heck... Bang bang bang!".


Who could argue with logic like that??

[Hairy Guy]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Backwards. The war on drugs is failure. You can lock away dealer / supplier one after another after another. There will be more and we'll be paying for prisons. You can make it life without parole first offense and it won't slow the supply.

Eliminating the demand is the only way.

you can't tell humans to shut off biology. people like to to use drugs or chase dopamine. most of that can be taken care of with sex, exercise, food (sugar raises serotonin in blood), and some milder stuff like reading or playing a sport to achieve something.

that reminds me of george bush advocating abstinence for teens. whether you like it or not, boys and men will wake up with erections because testosterone doesn't shut itself off. it even enters your dreams. it is why we are all even here, because of our dads who could not walk away from women...

demand will not be eliminated.

[cgregor]

"Demand will not be eliminated."

Quite true-- but when the thing demanded is illegal, all sorts of distortions come into play, like moonshine and "buttlegging" of banned tobacco products. Also, there is the reluctance of family members to seek help for the person with a problem when doing so means somebody will go to jail.

So, the solution is to decriminalize substance abuse and misuse and treat addicts the same way we treat drunks and heavy smokers-- fine them when their behavior has a negative impact on society (DUI, second-hand smoke, etc.) and use the money formerly put into drug interdiction for substance abuse education and treatment programs..

It is, as timberline 742 pointed out, a public health issue. Regulate it as the alcohol industry and tobacco industries are regulated-- and forbid advertising, since ads are designed to entice the young-- and you will see an end to the deaths and violence engendered by the hope of great but illegal profit.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by ejlorge

Besides being a not-so-thinly-veiled racist comment, it also happens to be ludicrous. (But they usually go together, don't they).

How is that racist? Please enlighten me. I never knew cop killers were only one race.

In other words, a potential cop-killer, (high on drugs no less), just before opening fire says to himself something like; "Golly, if I shoot this cop I'll only do 30 years to life in prison because I know the death penalty is illegal here in the state of New York. Ah, what the heck... Bang bang bang!".


Who could argue with logic like that??

Where do you come up with these little gems?

You're ASSUMING that the cop killer is high on drugs as opposed to a drug dealer who is desperate to evade arrest.

[vter]

Since this thread has strayed to a more general discussion on addiction its time to be closed. If you'd like to continue the discussion please visit the Health and Wellness (I guess that would be the appropriate place?) forum. Thanks!