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Again, the OP has stated clearly several times what he's interested in. Whether it's a good choice or not, that is his choice and he's entitled to his question. Please do not bicker to hijack the thread into something else.
I have been told (on this forum) that I don't live in a suburb b/c it has a downtown area. Truth is, it's in the midst of the Denver/Boulder metro, so what else would it be? Lots of its residents work in Denver, we identify with Denver; it's in Boulder County, part of the MSA. The large areas of LA are maybe their own separate case.
To many members of this forum, it seems like "suburban" means an area of low-density housing (mostly or all single family homes) built after World War II, few public amenities, and auto centric. That certainly does not describe all, or even most suburbs. Even burbs that started out like that have acquired commercial districts, employers, and so forth.
I posted some links of street facing single story storefronts from the suburb I grew up in and was told that suburbs don't have those. The suburb I grew up in has a downtown, too. But it's about 5 miles away. Here's a streetview of it:
and there's a blurb about living in it in the Times:
Living in Huntington Village, Long Island - The Heart and Soul of Suburbia - New York Times
You can park your car, eat lunch, shop and walk around in a much less sterile environment than a mall or strip. There's a movie theater, music hall, public library, park, independent bookstore (open till 11 on weekends) and more. While you can't usually park next to the store, in some ways it's more convenient because you can do several things without having to drive again.
It's become rather yuppified, and has a large amount of bars and restaurants (some cheap, some very fancy of the 3 course meal type). But there are normal shops and interesting things to do and see. Related it to the OP, if more suburbs were built like this, I'd be more interested in living in them. But it's mostly a retail center, the better jobs in the town are concentrated in office parks well to the south. But soon outside the center, it's low density housing (much of it post-war), almost all single family homes except one small section just as you describes other posters thinks suburbs are. I'm not sure what you mean by few public amnetities, I'd need something more specific to judge my old town on.
I noticed there was an odd difference in layout between "my" old suburb's downtown yours. Here's both at the same scale:
In mine, the two main state highways / arterials go through the town center. In fact all the secondary roads radiate from the center. From what I can see, the two main arterials in your suburb don't pass through the old downtown of Louisville; they go outside. It seem uninuitive to me for the road to avoid a commercial (and older) center, are main roads meant as bypasses? There's a very obvious break in layout between the old town and newer development; there's none obvious in mine. The housing looks denser in Louisville and it's gridded. And there's rural areas right next door to Louisville! Looks it could be good for biking...
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I agree that in no case should land inside the city be called a suburb. I think it might be confusing to call it suburban for that reason. Perhaps a different word is necessary. I was thinking of "low density", but then some burbs are high density too, though most do not have the skyscrapers of the core city. Maybe someone could help out?
Since the idea is to ignore city limits when defining by built form, it doesn't matter that burbs are high desnity. You can have low density neighborhoods in the city and high density neighborhoods in the suburbs. Group the low density parts of either together (in my post I referenced that as suburban) and the high density parts together (in my post I referenced that as urban). I don't want to go just by density alone or otherwise an isolated apartment complex in the suburbs would be labelled in the high density / urban category or a small section of large lots homes in a city surrounded by otherwise dense development would fall into the low density / suburban category.
Skyscrapers aren't always way how a dense a place is. Most dense housing in all US cities are a mix of low-rise (up to 5 or 6 stories) apartments and row houses. Skyscrapers tell us there's a high job density. But DC doesn't really have much skyscrapers but it has a high job density.
Great post! Huntington is one of my favorite places. I go there quite a bit. It's a wonderful example of a town that has just about everything you could want within a few miles.
It's also an interesting example of a suburb that's walkable (depending on how you look at it) and not at all walkable (depending on how you look at it), which I find intriguing.
It's very walkable because the shops are all close together in the downtown section and there are ample sidewalks there. It's difficult to find parking, so people tend to drive to the downtown, find a spot, and then walk. As a result Huntington Village is vibrant, full of walkers, and a destination for people looking a fun place to visit on Long Island.
At the same time, you can argue that Huntington isn't that walkable in some ways. Although it's easy to walk within downtown, it can be treacherous to walk to downtown from the residential section immediately surrounding downtown. As a result, the people I know who live there always drive even though it's just a few blocks.
The reason is the traffic--it's too crazy and there are a lot of blind corners that cars can comes zooming around. Also, the downtown area has sidewalks but the residential areas often do not. My inlaws live on Harriet, which is a steep curving road with no sidewalks, speeding cars, and blind curves. It's pleasant to walk in the street early on a Saturday morning, but not fun when cars start flying by at rush hour. They do have a sidewalk on the main street near their house, so there are some sidewalks--but it isn't in great shape and it's too close to the road. I think there's a tree lawn but it's only a foot or 2 wide, which doesn't leave much space between you and the cars. I walked it once but felt too nervous walking on it to want to do it again. As a result, my inlaws end up driving everywhere, even though everything is close by. But when they get to the Village, they do park and walk (and it's a wonderful pace).
I must say I love Huntington quite a bit, but if I could wave a magic wand and redesign it, I'd put a bypass for through traffic around the downtown instead of going right through the downtown. I'd add more sidewalks in the residential section, and I'd wide the tree lawns (if possible) and/or create other walking paths that were not right against the road. I'd also add parking underground (if possible) because if they could remove the street parking in front of the restaurants the traffic could move more smoothly and there'd be fewer accidents. I might even close a few of the streets and turn them into pedestrian malls.
...although maybe I wouldn't do any of these things. Huntington isn't perfect but it's charming the way it is. Is it such a bad thing that people drive a few blocks to go to the downtown? And, even if you made all these changes maybe people would drive downtown anyway because when you go shopping you don't want to lug packages.
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Originally Posted by nei
In mine, the two main state highways / arterials go through the town center. In fact all the secondary roads radiate from the center. From what I can see, the two main arterials in your suburb don't pass through the old downtown of Louisville; they go outside. It seem uninuitive to me for the road to avoid a commercial (and older) center, are main roads meant as bypasses?
Interesting comment, and a topic worthy of a whole thread just to discuss this. The communities near me are starting to route the main arterials around the downtowns instead of right through them, and the city planners are trying to do what they can to discourage through traffic from using the older, narrow roads that going through the center of town. They claim that the local stores get more business from local residents when they don't have to battle the through traffic. It would be interesting to debate whether or not this is a good idea.
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Originally Posted by nei
DC doesn't really have much skyscrapers but it has a high job density.
Very true, in fact I don't believe DC has any skyscrapers at all. It's a beautiful low slung skyline, very European in feel. Ironically, the skyscrapers are all in the nearby suburbs.
In mine, the two main state highways / arterials go through the town center. In fact all the secondary roads radiate from the center. From what I can see, the two main arterials in your suburb don't pass through the old downtown of Louisville; they go outside. It seem uninuitive to me for the road to avoid a commercial (and older) center, are main roads meant as bypasses? There's a very obvious break in layout between the old town and newer development; there's none obvious in mine. The housing looks denser in Louisville and it's gridded. And there's rural areas right next door to Louisville! Looks it could be good for biking...
I agree with what Caladium said about routing the arterials away from downtowns. I have heard that theory before. The arterials are for travel, the downtown, shopping. The main east -west arterial north of downtown, South Boulder Rd (the road to S. Boulder) was once a country road to get people to and from Boulder. The obvious break in the layout has to do with Louisville's growth pattern. From 1900 to 1970, Louisville grew slowly; in some decades not at all. The population in 1900 was 966; in 1970, 2409. Then in 1980, 5593; 1990, 12,361; 2000, 18,937, then leveling off to 18,376. It's dense, and yeah, there's a lot of biking in and around town.
I must say I love Huntington quite a bit, but if I could wave a magic wand and redesign it, I'd put a bypass for through traffic around the downtown instead of going right through the downtown. I'd add more sidewalks in the residential section, and I'd wide the tree lawns (if possible) and/or create other walking paths that were not right against the road. I'd also add parking underground (if possible) because if they could remove the street parking in front of the restaurants the traffic could move more smoothly and there'd be fewer accidents. I might even close a few of the streets and turn them into pedestrian malls.
...although maybe I wouldn't do any of these things. Huntington isn't perfect but it's charming the way it is. Is it such a bad thing that people drive a few blocks to go to the downtown? And, even if you made all these changes maybe people would drive downtown anyway because when you go shopping you don't want to lug packages.
Interesting comment, and a topic worthy of a whole thread just to discuss this. The communities near me are starting to route the main arterials around the downtowns instead of right through them, and the city planners are trying to do what they can to discourage through traffic from using the older, narrow roads that going through the center of town. They claim that the local stores get more business from local residents when they don't have to battle the through traffic. It would be interesting to debate whether or not this is a good idea.
This is an interesting topic!
I was undecided earlier on whether bypasses through a town center are a good idea, and the more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea. First, it's the town center if it's a main destination, the road system should directed to the center not skipping the center. If someone really wants to skip the traffic in Huntington village, there are a number of back roads you can use to go around which the locals (including myself) are familiar with. Second, if the main road goes around the town instead of through the town, the town center becomes a side detour that you have to make an effort to visit rather than something you would regularly pass through. At least in Long Island, few if any main roads / arterials lack stores. So the new bypass will become a place to put strip mall development that will compete with the downtown. If the bypass lacks shops it will be a quick route to skip downtown — maybe to the nearest mall. It might also separate the downtown from the rest of the region, turning the downtown into an old-fashioned version of a shopping center off the main road. So, no I don't think a bypass is a good idea. It will help traffic move better but it will lessen the importance of the downtown (including Huntington Village). I also don't know why you think you need lots of space between the sidewalk and the road; streetside parking should be sufficient and I don't think there's an issue with cars driving off the road. The traffic isn't exactly at freeway speed.
The roads were designed to go towards Huntington back when Huntington was a rural center; it was the main local destination so roads radiated to it, not bypassed it. I'm not sure what Huntington would like it if it had a bypass, it doesn't fit the area. I'm envisioning the village blocked from the rest of the area with a high speed mulitilane road making access to other parts of town difficult.
If the arterials pass through the town center, the main thoroughfares will be somewhat pedestrian friendly, such as in Huntington Village and new commercial development will be an extension of the old town center. You can see in the Huntington Village that shops continue on the main roads running the village past the center and suburban development is interconnected with the town and newer development. In the Louisville view, the old town center a lot of the newer suburban development didn't look like extension of the old town but rather subdivisons off arterials. And shops didn't continue past the town center. Once the main throughfare is outside it's likely to be less pedestrian friendly. So, the only change I'm favor of is adding more sidewalks. The traffic running slowly through can be a bit annoying but suburban strip mall commercial roads can also be rather jammed. And the slow traffic speeds downtown probably make it safer for pedestrains.
But yea, I can see the pros for having a bypass. Sometimes I have thought of it, thinking it would be a nice way to get ride of some of the traffic in the village.
When I was traveling in the western US, passed by some small towns that had old centers. The centers weren't on the main road, and it didn't occur to me that they'd be on a side road. So I never saw them.
In the western US, highways that bypassed town centers typically resulted in the slow collapse of those commercial districts. This is mentioned a bit in the Pixar animated film "Cars," but it really happened, especially in the western US: Main streets superseded by highways slowly fell into disrepair and disuse as the traffic they used to carry no longer had a reason to stop. Mid-century highway architecture was designed to catch the eye and encourage people to stop, in the form of gaudy roadside attractions, giant objects, space-age angular Googie design, semi-fictionalized reproductions of historic building styles, and of course the first recognizable chain restaurant and fast food building styles (like Howard Johnson's or McDonald's) to give travelers a recognizable icon. But if they couldn't see it, they didn't stop--and the small-town downtown began its decline, while new business models (highway-adjacent gas station/convenience stores, big-box stores, later 20th century strip malls) relocated the de facto "business district" serving travelers to a new part of town, or people simply didn't stop there anymore.
But if they couldn't see it, they didn't stop--and the small-town downtown began its decline, while new business models (highway-adjacent gas station/convenience stores, big-box stores, later 20th century strip malls) relocated the de facto "business district" serving travelers to a new part of town, or people simply didn't stop there anymore.
This is kinda what I was thinking might happen if there was a bypass. Right now, with no bypass, the suburban center I mentioned (Huntington village) gets the people who want to visit the interesting downtown as well as the people stop by because that's where the nearest retail. And it feels like a center not a side attraction.
The issue is moot in my specific example because the chances of building a bypass is 0; there's no room and few would want a busy highway nearby. Improving sidewalks further out could be doable.
In the western US, highways that bypassed town centers typically resulted in the slow collapse of those commercial districts. This is mentioned a bit in the Pixar animated film "Cars," but it really happened, especially in the western US: Main streets superseded by highways slowly fell into disrepair and disuse as the traffic they used to carry no longer had a reason to stop. Mid-century highway architecture was designed to catch the eye and encourage people to stop, in the form of gaudy roadside attractions, giant objects, space-age angular Googie design, semi-fictionalized reproductions of historic building styles, and of course the first recognizable chain restaurant and fast food building styles (like Howard Johnson's or McDonald's) to give travelers a recognizable icon. But if they couldn't see it, they didn't stop--and the small-town downtown began its decline, while new business models (highway-adjacent gas station/convenience stores, big-box stores, later 20th century strip malls) relocated the de facto "business district" serving travelers to a new part of town, or people simply didn't stop there anymore.
How about a source for that? It seems to me there is a philosophy to route through traffic away from downtown. Who needs semis going through the business district of a town, on their way to somewhere else. As an example, when US Highway 287 was widened and improved through Lafayette, CO, it was also re-routed around downtown. Downtown businesses don't depend on drop-in traffic from people driving through, and travelers don't like the stop lights and low speed limits (generally about 25 mph) in a downtown area.
Indeed, there are a wide variety of places you can live in the burbs--and it's good of you to point that out. So often people assume that there's nothing in the burbs but cookie cutter houses. Actually, you can find all sorts of housing (even though it's true that the sfh is more prevalent).
As a person who lives in Loudoun, I'm guessing you must mean these townhouses in Lansdowne? They're about the only ones I can think of that might have units with postage stamp-sized yard space. Here's a photo when they were first built (stores are in the foreground, with the townhomes on the next block).
without giving out our friends address, I think it was in Brambleton. It wasnt stamp sized yards, it was no yards.
NEi, good points. We were in Huntington LI a few months ago, and I would NOT want to see it changed. On street parking, that makes traffic move more slowly, makes a place pleasanter to walk around. Thats one of the counterintuitive findings of the new urbanism that many have not yet absorbed. That there is an inverse relationship between the quality of the walking experience (for most pedestrians and would be pedestrians) and speed of parallel vehicle traffic. Hence things like narrow lanes, on street parking, etc that serve as natural traffic calming (in contrast to things like speed bumps) tend to add to the pedestrian experience.
OTOH adding sidewalks to make it easier to walk there from nearby residential areas seems like something where the benefits easily outweigh the costs.
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The suburb I grew up in has a downtown, too. But it's about 5 miles away. Here's a streetview of it:
