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I am a firm believeer in credit checks for all cash handling positions, most bookeeping and accounting positions, any position where the applicant would have access to valuable items (such as working in a jewelry store), etc. For general labor, many clerical positions, etc. then I don't think it's particularly relevent.
WRONG!!.
I worked with an accountant who embezzled a lot of money. She had beautiful credit. I also know someone who got fired for stealing goods from the company he worked for. Again, he had wonderful credit. You're judging someone with irrelevant and overtly unfair standards. And as a result causing people unnecessary hardships. You are holding up a really bad excuse for a character check, especially in the economy.
I think a driving record and a math test would be just fine. A drug test or a criminal/background screening should do the trick. In this economy, the reason why someone is getting a job is to fix their credit.
WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS CALLED CLASS DISCRIMINATION.
Someone could be late on their student loans or hospital expenses is because of hardships. Getting those things deferred costs money, unemployment doesn't pay that much when the real wages decline and the Cost of living index has been over 200% for the last 10 years.
Nobody deals with that well unless they have a trust fund or generous parents. And the two are not guarentees. Nor do they always make great employees.
So apparently YOU can't be good at balancing the books; you're not detail oriented or aware of what's in the books. I'm being totally serious.
If you can't figure out why cash flow decreases and the expenses increase, you're not an accountant or a worthwhile financial analyst. I'll bet that you lied on your resume and you don't even know how to do your subordinate's job!
I've aced business and intermediate classes at a reputable university and performed better than some of my coworkers from "prestigous" universities. I know what I'm talking about. I'm an anonymous poster here, you can trust me but people who discriminate on subjective standards are typically incompetant to begin with.
The ONLY reason why anyone should use a credit check for employment is if you need their capital to be a business partner.
Otherwise, their credit history is really none of your business.
Butt out!
You're obviously not too good at your own job of knowing what's in your books, you might want to worry about that before you judge someone for going through personal troubles. Especially if that person is under 35- everybody but you seems to know why Gen y is struggling to start their adult lives. Unless you gave them money to pay their expenses with, THEIR CREDIT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
Last edited by imasurvivor2009; 08-10-2009 at 01:16 AM..
Reason: grammar
We won't be looking at credit scores, but rather the overall handling of credit. Someone who has never paid anything on time in their lifetime is not a responsible person. Someone who has paid their bills ontime but has a few medical collection accounts is not someone we'd worry about. See the difference?
Where's the guarentee? Again this is pending on subjective judgement which is messed up when a huge bureacracy is in charge of "character checks".
How is a criminal/background/transcript checks not enough? Again, what they do with their money is really NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
I hate to flame the fans but I agree with others that this is just another form of classicism. I also agree with those who say it's a reality that isn't going away.
My opinion is abnormally pessimistic. I believe that we create systems of FAIL and we enjoy them because if others are failing, it must mean the rest of us aren't failing, etc, etc, etc.
As such, the credit score is in NO way an objective measure. I argue the following:
1. not everyone has the same ability to build credit -- a lower paying position/salary isn't going to extend the same credibility to lenders as a higher paying position, so automatically, the poor are at a disadvantage by not having access to the same resources and are more likely to fall prey to predatory lending under this umbrella
2. not everyone has the same life stability -- as already mentioned, illness, divorce, turnover in jobs, death in family, or just not having enough support to maintain a current lifestyle, some, like the wealthy executives, are publicly forgiven for their mishandling of millions/billions but JoeSchmo who works down at Burger King can't get a promotion because he didn't pay off his $500 Capital One card and it's now standing @ $3000 plus and growing every day
3. not everyone has the same awareness of resources -- believe it or not, not every town has a bank or credit union, definitely every town doesn't have ATM's, every town doesn't have multiple stores where you can shop for bargains, etc, etc, etc -- not everyone knows that you don't have to pay $3000 for a washer/dryer on easy pay at Rent-A-Center because the world outside of their small town doesn't exist, if you think this isn't true, you are incredibly naive
4. employers are a little full of themselves in this market and I say this as a former hiring manager for an international beast of a company, I was young, just starting out, and back then, we considered resume, references, transcripts, drug tests, criminal background checks, dmv checks, and interviews... for the upper management positions, I wasn't privy to that interview process b/c it was handled by execs, but there was talk that on OCCASION if something seemed fishy, they might request an extra set of references -- this credit report business is something that seems to have popped up over the last eight years, if you want to check someone's character, isn't that the purpose of the CRIMINAL background check?
I don't want to number it anymore but this is just sad and it speaks to, what I consider to be, a huge problem in this country. Let me use Cash for Clunkers as an example... who does it help exactly? Mostly, it helps people who could afford to purchase a large SUV and maintain it for at least a year with full insurance who had no trouble keeping it up during $4/gallon gas and were able to maintain sufficient credit/cash to go right out on a whim and purchase a brand new vehicle with the assistance of government money. I'm sure there were probably SOME folks who have been out of work and needed the stimulus effect of this to cash in their 1987 pickup truck that was on its last legs... but come on, even the news is saying EVERY DAY that the majority of cars being traded in had less than 85k miles on them. We, as a nation, are DESTROYING cars that poor families without transportation could be driving. We are stimulating a new car market that we JUST BAILED OUT with billions of dollars. We are getting rid of the "clunkers" that are considered luxuries to the people who are hurting most right now. What happens to the used car market (in other words, what most people can afford) in a few years when there are no "clunkers" out there to be purchased?
No one thinks beyond their own immediate needs anymore and that is why this economy collapsed. Whether it's the 18 year old maxing out $10k in credit card debt, the mid career changer who takes out $150k in loans to attend University of Phoenix for a whatever degree, or the corp execs who don't think beyond their quarterly earnings reports.
Sorry for venting, but I'm just flipping sick of it. Not anyone here or anything in particular, just everything in general. Every day I serve those with the least and I get unimaginably tired of the fact that many other people refuse to acknowledge that a life other than their own exists.
In what universe does it make sense to deny a person who doesn't have enough money to pay their bills employment because they "might" steal?? Sorry, but that's one of the worst things I've ever read on this board. It's like we are living in revolutionary France and people are going to be accused of stealing bread if they are dressed in rags and caught with a sandwich.
No, go back and read my post. I am a gardener. I do not handle cash. I do not enter people's homes. I dig and mow and weed.
So these old medical bills on my credit report are relevant to my reliability and competence in what way??
I didn't say they were. All along I've been specific about people in cash handling and accounting/bokkeeping positions being the ones that need to be credit checked.
That said, I can understand why gardeners might be required to have a background check. There was a house in this are that was recently robbed of over $120K of furnishings, appliances, everything, because the gardener knew they were going to be gone for a month, he also knew that people were used to seeing him around the house and in the neighborhood. He broke in through a back door and methodically took everything in the home. He was able to get away with it because he had been given the gate code and people knew his face around the neighborhood, so he wasn't seen as an intruder.
I agree with this. One's prior work history is what is relevant. Along with vague intangibles like likeability - which is fine. Credit history should really be in the "vague intangible" category. There are way too many variables and permutations with credit histories.
I am still waiting for Annerk to provide me with reliable, empirical data about a correlation between credit history and job performance. There isn't any. "Feelings" and anecdotes are really irrelevant in a rational discussion.
I don't have to provide you with anything. All I'm going to say is if I owned a business, I wouldn't hire someone with bad credit to handle my money. My perrogative. And if they passed a law otherwise, I'd find a loophole to keep you away from my cash. I'd require you to be bonded, and let the insurance company deny you--then I'd be within my rights to not hire you.
I worked with an accountant who embezzled a lot of money. She had beautiful credit. I also know someone who got fired for stealing goods from the company he worked for. Again, he had wonderful credit. You're judging someone with irrelevant and overtly unfair standards. And as a result causing people unnecessary hardships. You are holding up a really bad excuse for a character check, especially in the economy.
I think a driving record and a math test would be just fine. A drug test or a criminal/background screening should do the trick. In this economy, the reason why someone is getting a job is to fix their credit.
WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS CALLED CLASS DISCRIMINATION.
Someone could be late on their student loans or hospital expenses is because of hardships. Getting those things deferred costs money, unemployment doesn't pay that much when the real wages decline and the Cost of living index has been over 200% for the last 10 years.
Nobody deals with that well unless they have a trust fund or generous parents. And the two are not guarentees. Nor do they always make great employees.
My husband and I have neither a trust fund nor generous parents. If anything it is US being generous to THEM. Our standard of living has gone up each year over the past 10 years. We've been willing to work extra jobs, we've lived within our means, we didn't get caught up in the credit bubble.
Quote:
So apparently YOU can't be good at balancing the books; you're not detail oriented or aware of what's in the books. I'm being totally serious.
If you can't figure out why cash flow decreases and the expenses increase, you're not an accountant or a worthwhile financial analyst. I'll bet that you lied on your resume and you don't even know how to do your subordinate's job!
I never said I was an accountant. not sure where you got that from.
Quote:
I've aced business and intermediate classes at a reputable university and performed better than some of my coworkers from "prestigous" universities. I know what I'm talking about. I'm an anonymous poster here, you can trust me but people who discriminate on subjective standards are typically incompetant to begin with.
The ONLY reason why anyone should use a credit check for employment is if you need their capital to be a business partner.
Otherwise, their credit history is really none of your business.
Butt out!
Ah but it is. And if they do'nt like that fact, they can go work elsewhere.
Quote:
You're obviously not too good at your own job of knowing what's in your books, you might want to worry about that before you judge someone for going through personal troubles. Especially if that person is under 35- everybody but you seems to know why Gen y is struggling to start their adult lives. Unless you gave them money to pay their expenses with, THEIR CREDIT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
I'm not an accountant, so watching the books isn't part of my job, but thanks for your concern. And per your last statement, if they are my employee, yes it would seem that I'm giving them money to pay their expenses. So if they aren't doing that responsibly, why should I think that they'd be handling my money responsibly?
If I do open this business, my employees will need to be bonded--even the person who mops the floors. So people with bad credit or criminal records need not apply.
I hate to flame the fans but I agree with others that this is just another form of classicism. I also agree with those who say it's a reality that isn't going away.
My opinion is abnormally pessimistic. I believe that we create systems of FAIL and we enjoy them because if others are failing, it must mean the rest of us aren't failing, etc, etc, etc.
As such, the credit score is in NO way an objective measure. I argue the following:
1. not everyone has the same ability to build credit -- a lower paying position/salary isn't going to extend the same credibility to lenders as a higher paying position, so automatically, the poor are at a disadvantage by not having access to the same resources and are more likely to fall prey to predatory lending under this umbrella
My son makes $10 an hour, has two credit cards and when he spoke to a mortgage guy last month, a 800 credit score. He's not exactly "a high income earner." He doesn't run up the cards, he uses them responsibly to pay for things he has the cash in the bank to cover.
Quote:
2. not everyone has the same life stability -- as already mentioned, illness, divorce, turnover in jobs, death in family, or just not having enough support to maintain a current lifestyle, some, like the wealthy executives, are publicly forgiven for their mishandling of millions/billions but JoeSchmo who works down at Burger King can't get a promotion because he didn't pay off his $500 Capital One card and it's now standing @ $3000 plus and growing every day
And if he didn't buy things he didn't ahve the cash to pay for, then who is to blame. It's a CREDIT card, not an ATM card. Duh.
Quote:
3. not everyone has the same awareness of resources -- believe it or not, not every town has a bank or credit union, definitely every town doesn't have ATM's, every town doesn't have multiple stores where you can shop for bargains, etc, etc, etc -- not everyone knows that you don't have to pay $3000 for a washer/dryer on easy pay at Rent-A-Center because the world outside of their small town doesn't exist, if you think this isn't true, you are incredibly naive
I'm not naive, but we shouldn't be rewarding people who are too naive to use their brains. I don't care how far out in the hills they live, anybody who belives RAC's spiel is the naive one. I have no use for people who can't use some common sense.
Quote:
4. employers are a little full of themselves in this market and I say this as a former hiring manager for an international beast of a company, I was young, just starting out, and back then, we considered resume, references, transcripts, drug tests, criminal background checks, dmv checks, and interviews... for the upper management positions, I wasn't privy to that interview process b/c it was handled by execs, but there was talk that on OCCASION if something seemed fishy, they might request an extra set of references -- this credit report business is something that seems to have popped up over the last eight years, if you want to check someone's character, isn't that the purpose of the CRIMINAL background check?
Criminal check is just part of the picture.
Quote:
I don't want to number it anymore but this is just sad and it speaks to, what I consider to be, a huge problem in this country. Let me use Cash for Clunkers as an example... who does it help exactly? Mostly, it helps people who could afford to purchase a large SUV and maintain it for at least a year with full insurance who had no trouble keeping it up during $4/gallon gas and were able to maintain sufficient credit/cash to go right out on a whim and purchase a brand new vehicle with the assistance of government money. I'm sure there were probably SOME folks who have been out of work and needed the stimulus effect of this to cash in their 1987 pickup truck that was on its last legs... but come on, even the news is saying EVERY DAY that the majority of cars being traded in had less than 85k miles on them. We, as a nation, are DESTROYING cars that poor families without transportation could be driving. We are stimulating a new car market that we JUST BAILED OUT with billions of dollars. We are getting rid of the "clunkers" that are considered luxuries to the people who are hurting most right now. What happens to the used car market (in other words, what most people can afford) in a few years when there are no "clunkers" out there to be purchased?
I agree with you 100% on this. And one of the reasons I can pay my bills is because I don't drive a $50K SUV that gets 12 mpg, I don't keep up with the neighbors. And I have no sympathy for those that get burned trying to do so.
Quote:
No one thinks beyond their own immediate needs anymore and that is why this economy collapsed. Whether it's the 18 year old maxing out $10k in credit card debt, the mid career changer who takes out $150k in loans to attend University of Phoenix for a whatever degree, or the corp execs who don't think beyond their quarterly earnings reports.
I ahve no sympathy for 18 year olds who max out credit cards or people taht spend a fortune on useless educations. They dug their graves.
Quote:
Sorry for venting, but I'm just flipping sick of it. Not anyone here or anything in particular, just everything in general. Every day I serve those with the least and I get unimaginably tired of the fact that many other people refuse to acknowledge that a life other than their own exists.
I know that life exists. I was a single mom who made exactly $4 too much to qualify for EIC and pout myself through college. But I also ahd some common sense and didn't rack up thousands of dollars in credit card bills. I paid my bills and did without when I didn't have the money to buy things.
Quote:
In what universe does it make sense to deny a person who doesn't have enough money to pay their bills employment because they "might" steal?? Sorry, but that's one of the worst things I've ever read on this board. It's like we are living in revolutionary France and people are going to be accused of stealing bread if they are dressed in rags and caught with a sandwich.
There are plenty of lines of work that people can do that don't involve cash handling. Flip burgers instead of workign the register. Work as an admin instead of a bookkeeper. Rebuild credit buy paying off bills. Most of the people I know with poor credit have had the financial opportunity to resolve their debts, but have chosen to spend the money on other things like expensive TV's, vacations, jewelry, etc.
I didn't say you had to provide me with anything. I'm not going to come to you for a job. No need to make this personal. BTW, I have been bonded (most recently in 2007) although I'm not currently because there's no reason to be.
Nor did I ever say you weren't within your rights to use whatever criteria you wish in making hiring decisions - in fact I made a point of saying (perhaps not on this thread, can't remember) that as a business owner myself, I think the government should let me use pretty much whatever hiring criteria I wish. And the same goes for you.
Why are you being so defensive? I have been polite and specifically said I was not asking for cites for the purpose of being argumentative. Rather because I base my decisions and opinions on empirical data, not some anonymous person's feelings and opinions. You are not an authoritative source of anything except your own opinion, stated about billionty-seven times here. Which you are fully entitled to, but it's neither particularly interesting or germaine. Fine, we get it already, you won't hire someone with poor credit to handle money. I imagine most people wouldn't.
You know what they say about opinions. I wasn't asking for you to state yours yet again. I assume there's no data, I certainly haven't found any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by annerk
I don't have to provide you with anything. All I'm going to say is if I owned a business, I wouldn't hire someone with bad credit to handle my money. My perrogative. And if they passed a law otherwise, I'd find a loophole to keep you away from my cash. I'd require you to be bonded, and let the insurance company deny you--then I'd be within my rights to not hire you.
And if he didn't buy things he didn't ahve the cash to pay for, then who is to blame. It's a CREDIT card, not an ATM card. Duh.
Criminal check is just part of the picture.
I agree with you 100% on this. And one of the reasons I can pay my bills is because I don't drive a $50K SUV that gets 12 mpg, I don't keep up with the neighbors. And I have no sympathy for those that get burned trying to do so.
I ahve no sympathy for 18 year olds who max out credit cards or people taht spend a fortune on useless educations. They dug their graves...
There are plenty of lines of work that people can do that don't involve cash handling. Flip burgers instead of workign the register. Work as an admin instead of a bookkeeper. Rebuild credit buy paying off bills. Most of the people I know with poor credit have had the financial opportunity to resolve their debts, but have chosen to spend the money on other things like expensive TV's, vacations, jewelry, etc.
When the cost of living index is 200%, chances are that fiscally responsible people are going to struggle. It's obvious that you don't do the books, you can't read numbers. You can get 2 jobs flipping burgers and share the rent with 5 other people, you're still not going to make ends meet.
And you have no idea how bureaucracies work.
They don't care if you're behind on your medical bills while on unemployment or if you're an 18 year old that maxed out his/her credit cards. You're just a number to them and their looking at numbers only;not reasons. They get a high volume of resumes and they can't evaluate every single last one of them.
The criminal background and an aptitude test is enough.
And what do you have against higher education? How do you think people are supposed to learn financial analysis, medicine, nursing, education, statistics, how to fly a plane or engineering without that "worthless piece of paper"? Do you think that everyone is just qualified for reception/janitorial/Burger King work? When someone can pass a difficult exam; for example most business grads are required to pass stats, calculus and computer courses as part of their training. Medical students are required to pass extremely difficult courses such as organic chem. Engineering students are required to pass difficult Physic's exams before they design your cars/airplanes/machines/etc.
You obviously didn't qualify for any of these; your lack of respect just shows your complete ignorance of the values. Do you think they lack value only because someone in India can undercut their salaries due to a lower cost of living over there? They too have that worthless piece of paper.
Or do you think an engineer/doctor/business analyst/pilot/radiologist/nurse/teacher/auditor/Unix programmer can do the job without the proper education?
Do you really think that these people have nothing to offer because of their degrees?
Your entitlement issue is unfortunately a trend, you're threatened. Are you a Boomer? Is this a common way of thinking? Professionally, I find your ignorance scary.
I never said I was an accountant. not sure where you got that from.
I'm not an accountant, so watching the books isn't part of my job, but thanks for your concern. And per your last statement, if they are my employee, yes it would seem that I'm giving them money to pay their expenses. So if they aren't doing that responsibly, why should I think that they'd be handling my money responsibly?
If I do open this business, my employees will need to be bonded--even the person who mops the floors. So people with bad credit or criminal records need not apply.[/quote]
You have not already provided that employee with money. The cost of living index across the country was 180%; in California it was well over 200%. In NYC it was 400%. i know people who have nothing and suffered bad credit because they had nothing.
People are getting repoed left and right but they're often the ones who had the chance to afford a legitimate mortgage before the faulty subprime market existed.
Do you not know what the cost of living index is? And why do you bash on higher education? It looks like you have a lot to gain by going after it.
You're very ignroant and as a result very prejudice. What is your problem?
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I have been polite and specifically said I was not asking for cites for the purpose of being argumentative. Rather because I base my decisions and opinions on empirical data, not some anonymous person's feelings and opinions. You are not an authoritative source of anything except your own opinion, stated about billionty-seven times here. Which you are fully entitled to, but it's neither particularly interesting or germaine. Fine, we get it already, you won't hire someone with poor credit to handle money. I imagine most people wouldn't.
