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Even though we know that on a clear night you can see about 3,000 stars, the Bible states that the stars in the heavens cannot be numbered.
But they can. (And so can the descendants of David to which they are compared in this verse.) Of course, right now, we can only estimate their number, but that number is finite and could potentially be discovered. This clearly was a hyperbole, and requires no special knowledge of the universe.
The Bible describes the stars as though they were some sort of ornaments at the top of a dome or something of that nature. The authors of the Bible didn't have the foggiest idea that there even was a universe and you really couldn't expect them to. There's even a passage in the Bible that states that a third of the stars are going to fall from the sky and strike the earth which is of course impossible because the earth is just a tiny speck in space when compared to even the smallest star.
Really, I'm curious, exactly where does it say all of this and how did you arrive at that conclusion
Really, I'm curious, exactly where does it say all of this and how did you arrive at that conclusion
Genesis 1:14 "And God said, "let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness."
Ok, that's the explanation in Genesis and it seems to suggest that the existence of the sun, moon and stars were created for the purpose of providing the right lighting conditions on the earth. It doesn't mention that the moon is actually just reflecting the light of the sun from it's surface and it sounds very much like the stars were placed up in the sky like some sort of track lighting to add some additional light with the moon. If you read what the Bible actually says, that's just how it sounds to me.
A couple of things. First, I just went and pulled my Bible out of the fiction section to look up that passage. Here's what my Bible says: those also who burned incense to Ba'al, to the sun, and the moon, and the constellations, and all of the host of the heavens. My copy doesn't use the word planet. Anyway, if you reread what I posted I said that they didn't know that there were other solar systems with planets, I didn't actually state that they didn't know there were planets in ours. In fact I would have thought that they would have known because you hear mythology about Mars and of course astrology is very ancient.
H4208
מזּלה
mazzâlâh
maz-zaw-law'
Apparently from H5140 in the sense of raining; a constellation, that is, Zodiacal sign (perhaps as affecting the weather): - planet. Compare H4216.
2Ki 23:5 And he put an end to the false priests, who had been put in their positions by the kings of Judah to see to the burning of offerings in the high places in the towns of Judah and the outskirts of Jerusalem, and all those who made offerings to Baal and to the sun and the moon and the twelve signs and all the stars of heaven. (BBE)
Genesis 1:14 "And God said, "let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness."
Ok, that's the explanation in Genesis and it seems to suggest that the existence of the sun, moon and stars were created for the purpose of providing the right lighting conditions on the earth. It doesn't mention that the moon is actually just reflecting the light of the sun from it's surface and it sounds very much like the stars were placed up in the sky like some sort of track lighting to add some additional light with the moon. If you read what the Bible actually says, that's just how it sounds to me.
The Hebrew word usually used with regard those things at that scripture is actually lumunaries and they were created long before the earth, but it was only at a particular point of time when they themselves actually would have become visable through the atmosphere. The dictionary gives the definition of a luminary as being a "a body that gives light, especially the celestial bodies" . There's an entirely diffferent Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:3 where the description of events on the first day are described. It's the type of eluminating light you see on a thick cloudy day, but the actually sun or even full moon isn't actually decernable, though it's presence can be seen. At some historical point (forget the literal 24 hour garbage), at verse 14 the actual luminaries themselves simply became visable had there been an actual person viewing these events. (That is in fact how the description of the Genesis account is laid out, as if an actual human being had been standing on the earth to view events as they fast-forwarded by them) It was meant to be a Science Lesson 101.
However, those celestial bodies had already been around millions, or perhaps billions of years. Verses 1 & 2 actually allow for that. In fact at the beginning of the first day's description, there is NO mention of a physical description of the earth globe itself as being made or created, it was already present. The only description given in verse 2 says that "now the earth was waste and formless", or basically as scientists have described it's possible condition before any life, that it would have been something like venus. I just saw a documentary a week ago on venus and how it took numerous attempts be scientists to create a probe that could image back data to earth for pictures, because the surface was entire dark because of the massive cloud layered atmosphere. So before verse 3 picks up the first day or period where at some historical point light itself penitrated the cloud layer to the surface. At that point, with the atmosphere gradually changing, light would have been decernable as day and with the rotation when it disappeared, it would have been night. So the earth was already present as raw canvas, then from that point events go forward.
There was no logical reason to explain to a people ignorant of many scientific facts about the luminous light observed on the moon as being only a reflect of the sun's brilliance.
These other scriptures popping up here, is this an attempt to show they beliefed in Astrology ??? Because it's not. The history channel actually had a program on this very thing in dealing with the wise men who were saud to visit Jesus. They were in fact astrologers. The point the scholars on the program made was that of all the nations at that time, Israel was the only one that never practiced it though all the other nations around them did. The reference to Baal and Astrology was condemned. There were laws against this pagan practice in Israel. At times though the Jews disobeyed and got involved in incorporating pagan concepts into the Hebrew worship of their God Jehovah.
Looking at other posts here, it appears there was never an honest attempt to understand anything, but to make joke of the situation.
Quote:
hahaha what does this mentioning of planets have to do with anything?
It would further my suspicsion that the christianity god is fake.
Unfortunately some of these subjects which could otherwise be interesting discussion, turn into Pomper Room playground trash talking with my god bigger and better than your god. I wish there was a specific sub-forum where all these so-called intellectual geniuses on both sides could fight it out like adolesent street gang bangers they are away from the more serious discussion.
Guess I should have known better here. It's like saying, I hope the United Nations brings us that promised "Oh Lord Kumbaya" some day soon.
Campbell34,
If the Bible painted such an accurate view of the universe when it was written why were people persecuted or even executed for suggesting that the earth revolved around the sun? Scientists made progress despite the fact that they were persecuted and it was rational thought and the scientific method that discovered the nature of the universe, it didn't come from the Bible. What you're doing is greatly exaggerating the meaning of particular passages in the Bible to suggest that they were supporting what we know to be true today. There shouldn't have been any conflict whatsoever between religion and science if the Bible had been clearly describing what scientists would later confirm. That obviously is not what happened. Religious institutions have vigoriously fought scientific progress from the beginning because it contradicted what religion was teaching at the time.
Why would this be surprising ??? As long as the man has graced his presence here, have you ever come to the conclusion that his dogma is a personal dogma shared by him and only him??? I've rarely found any group here who've sided with him on anything. Much of the outrageousness of some of the more oddball quips of his are usually simply begging to be targeted by the opposition. At that point, it becomes how much rope can you give to see how long it takes for him to hang himself. I don't know how many times I've seen your side make another quick run to Home Depot to buy another couple rolls of rope. He's relentless.
I've never met anybody who had the ability to paint themselves into a corner and then invent on the spot some of the most rediculous ways to back out of it. Usually done by going off on a tangent in a completely off the wall idea and off topic in another direction. The stuff he's going on about here is incredible and I've never heard anybody who explains this stuff the way he does.
Campbell34 i have been reading through alot of your posts and come to the conclusion you know alot about your religion. So god does not talk about a creation of another planet beside earth?
In Isaiah 45:18 the God of the Bible tells us He created the heavens and formed the earth. He also said He did not create the earth to be a (waste place), but formed it to be (inhabited). So it appears there are other places God created, and considered them to be (waste places) that are (not inhabited). We see these empty waste planets today, yet few people living thousands of years ago would of understood this.
Also, Jesus speaking to others in John 3 stated. If I have told you people about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? Christ mission was the Salvation of man. No doubt He could of spoke much more about the universe, yet this was not His main mission. And it also appears He doubted that few would believe His account anyway.
Campbell34,
If the Bible painted such an accurate view of the universe when it was written why were people persecuted or even executed for suggesting that the earth revolved around the sun? Scientists made progress despite the fact that they were persecuted and it was rational thought and the scientific method that discovered the nature of the universe, it didn't come from the Bible. What you're doing is greatly exaggerating the meaning of particular passages in the Bible to suggest that they were supporting what we know to be true today. There shouldn't have been any conflict whatsoever between religion and science if the Bible had been clearly describing what scientists would later confirm. That obviously is not what happened. Religious institutions have vigoriously fought scientific progress from the beginning because it contradicted what religion was teaching at the time.
I never stated the Bible gave a detailed map of the universe, I only stated that what the Bible stated about the universe was accurate. There is a big difference between Religious institutions, and the Bible. Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of the Old Testament, yet it was a Religious institution that followed the Old Testament that had Jesus put to death. Religion does not always reflect truth. The Bible on the other hand, does. Yet often Religion perverts Biblical truth, and that is why Jesus warned us to avoid vain religion.
A couple of things. First, I just went and pulled my Bible out of the fiction section to look up that passage. Here's what my Bible says: those also who burned incense to Ba'al, to the sun, and the moon, and the constellations, and all of the host of the heavens. My copy doesn't use the word planet. Anyway, if you reread what I posted I said that they didn't know that there were other solar systems with planets, I didn't actually state that they didn't know there were planets in ours. In fact I would have thought that they would have known because you hear mythology about Mars and of course astrology is very ancient.
The Bible I have uses planets. If you google, you can see there are different translations of the Bible. You can see the one that has planets.
The Bible I have uses planets. If you google, you can see there are different translations of the Bible. You can see the one that has planets.
2Ki 23:5
(Amp) He put away the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in Judah's cities and round about Jerusalem--also those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations [or twelve signs of the zodiac], and to all the hosts of the heavens.
(ASV) And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
(BBE) And he put an end to the false priests, who had been put in their positions by the kings of Judah to see to the burning of offerings in the high places in the towns of Judah and the outskirts of Jerusalem, and all those who made offerings to Baal and to the sun and the moon and the twelve signs and all the stars of heaven.
(CEV) Josiah also got rid of the pagan priests at the local shrines in Judah and around Jerusalem. These were the men that the kings of Judah had appointed to offer sacrifices to Baal and to the sun, moon, and stars.
(CLV) And he has caused to cease the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah have appointed, (and they make perfume in high places, in cities of Judah and suburbs of Jerusalem,) and those making perfume to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of the heavens.
(Darby) And he abolished the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense on the high places in the cities of Judah, and the environs of Jerusalem; and them that burned incense to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven.
(DRB) And he destroyed the soothsayers, whom the kings of Juda had appointed to sacrifice in the high places in the cities of Juda, and round about Jerusalem: them also that burnt incense to Baal, and to the sun, and to the moon, and to the twelve signs, and to all the host of heaven.
(ESV) And he deposed the priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to make offerings in the high places at the cities of Judah and around Jerusalem; those also who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and the moon and the constellations and all the host of the heavens.
(GNB) He removed from office the priests that the kings of Judah had ordained to offer sacrifices on the pagan altars in the cities of Judah and in places near Jerusalem---all the priests who offered sacrifices to Baal, to the sun, the moon, the planets, and the stars.
(GW) He got rid of the pagan priests whom the kings of Judah had appointed to sacrifice at the illegal places of worship in the cities of Judah and all around Jerusalem. They had been sacrificing to Baal, the sun god, the moon god, the zodiac, and the entire army of heaven.
(KJV) And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
(LITV) And he caused to cease the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had given place to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places around Jerusalem, and those burning incense to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to constellations, and to all the host of the heavens.
(MKJV) And he put down the idol-worshiping priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places around Jerusalem. He also put down those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of the heavens.
(MSG) He fired the pagan priests whom the kings of Judah had hired to supervise the local sex-and-religion shrines in the towns of Judah and neighborhoods of Jerusalem. In a stroke he swept the country clean of the polluting stench of the round-the-clock worship of Baal, sun and moon, stars--all the so-called cosmic powers.
(NET) He eliminated15 the pagan priests whom the kings of Judah had appointed to offer sacrifices16 on the high places in the cities of Judah and in the area right around Jerusalem. (They offered sacrifices17 to Baal, the sun god, the moon god, the constellations, and all the stars in the sky.)
(NKJV) Then he removed the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense on the high places in the cities of Judah and in the places all around Jerusalem, and those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven.
(RV) And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
(VW) And he put an end to the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had dedicated to burn incense on the high places in the cities of Judah and in the places all around Jerusalem, and those burning incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the zodiac, and to all the host of the heavens.
(WEB) He put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; those also who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of the sky.
(Webster) And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places around Jerusalem; them also that burned incense to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
(YLT) And he hath caused to cease the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah have appointed, (and they make perfume in high places, in cities of Judah and suburbs of Jerusalem,) and those making perfume to Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of the heavens.
Hows that for inerrancy then?
Zodiac, constellations, planets, cosmic powers, twelve signs...
I guess you can get the bible to say just what you want it to say when you translate it to your bias.
9 out of 21 is not really defacto proof now is it?
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He's relentless. 
