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O.k., but...like I mentioned before, did you *look* for prayers to be answered in a specific way? I mean, is it possible that they (at least some) were answered, but you just didn't notice?
I apologize if I'm harping on this, but I find it almost unbelievable that you had NO prayers answered EVER. I suppose it happens but...NEVER?
No, I am not saying I don't believe I never had prayers answered. I believe I did, sometimes startlingly so. I can think of a few times that stand out in my memory. And an atheist would say the odds are that SOME would be answered just given the laws of chance, and they would be correct.
They are hard to remember during the darker times when God appears to have abandoned us and gone silent, or worse, appears to be actively enjoying causing us pain. In those times, particularly when one asks for bread and God gives a stone, it becomes much more real to think that God doesn't exist, because the alternative is that God is a mean and spiteful jokester.
I am not an atheist, at least not yet, but I can identify with the OP, who was a better Christian than I and yet lost her faith, partly because I have experienced that seeming abandonment or apparent cruelty, the giving of the stone in response to the request for bread. I can understand how it happens.
There is a site I found about forgiving God. The author points out that we may never know in this life why the prayers went unanswered, why the cries for help or comfort were met with silence. The idea is that we can be free to say how we feel without being scorned or scolded for our lack of acceptance and faith and that the next thing to pray for is to be able to forgive God, which I suppose really means to be able to get past it. For some, though, the damage done to their faith may never heal.
Curious though. While you may not have asked for financial success at the time you were Christian, did you attribute your success to God anyway? This is actually kind of a lead into how I'll respond to the next few paragraphs.
It wasn't on my radar. I was never in particular financial need or want and even when I was just starting out in life I was willing to live simply and within my means ... so it wasn't something I felt was lacking or that I needed specific help with. In general of course I assumed what abilities I had were in some sense graces god gave me. Also I was raised with the notion that one had to work hard for whatever one wanted financially. This was of course back in the day when the social contract was working well enough (and then, too, I was things like white, heterosexual, and male).
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Originally Posted by Mink57
I think it depends on how we see God in the first place. If we see Him as one who's "supposed" to show us He 'loves' us by granting us EVERYTHING we want (so we can be 'happy', because after all...God 'should' want to see all of us 'happy', since He has the means to do so), then we really ARE treating him like a genie in a bottle.
I always hoarded my poker chips for truly crucial things. I didn't ask god to find my car keys or make me rich or irresistible to women or something. Let's try not to slide into stereotypes here.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
And maybe, it's our concept of 'love' that needs to change, before we can believe.
I don't approach this from the perspective that god didn't love me. That is I suppose one possible explanation for tragedy. But I tended to just not see any "there" there. That is why I keep coming back to the criteria for answered prayer. "yes no or maybe" is a super low bar and doesn't actually mean anything.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
When I pray, I don't look for the answer to my prayers the way I think--or expect--it to happen. That is, don't expect God HIMSELF to come swooping down immediately after praying and personally hand me the thing I want.
I didn't either.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
These things that happen may be explainable, but only to a point. I wrote in another forum that I gave some money to a homeless guy. They guy was bowled over. He said that he just finished praying for the exact amount I gave him. Coincidence? To you, maybe. But what are the odds that I would leave my house, drop my keys on the way to my car, drive my car and get stuck in traffic, only to encounter that man at the exact moment he asked God for some help? Too many 'coincidences' for me.
The other explanation is that he simply claimed he had just prayed for that exact amount. Why wouldn't he? It would tend to lubricate your future generosity, lol. Seriously though, if I had regular experiences like that it would have certainly influenced my thinking about prayer differently.
... did you *look* for prayers to be answered in a specific way? I mean, is it possible that they (at least some) were answered, but you just didn't notice?
Whenever one of my children asked me for a hug, you can rest assured, they noticed the resulting hug.
I mean seriously ... if god answers prayer and no one notices, did he really answer it?
That you even have to resort to such a speculation says a lot about the efficacy of prayer IMO.
No, I am not saying I don't believe I never had prayers answered. I believe I did, sometimes startlingly so. I can think of a few times that stand out in my memory. And an atheist would say the odds are that SOME would be answered just given the laws of chance, and they would be correct.
Therein lies one difference. I don't believe in "luck" or "chance."
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They are hard to remember during the darker times when God appears to have abandoned us and gone silent, or worse, appears to be actively enjoying causing us pain. In those times, particularly when one asks for bread and God gives a stone, it becomes much more real to think that God doesn't exist, because the alternative is that God is a mean and spiteful jokester.
Sometimes I've reminded Him that He's not supposed to give a stone if I ask for bread. Lo and behold...
Quote:
I am not an atheist, at least not yet, but I can identify with the OP, who was a better Christian than I and yet lost her faith, partly because I have experienced that seeming abandonment or apparent cruelty, the giving of the stone in response to the request for bread.
I can understand how it happens.
If that happens, I remind myself that it seemed like God abandoned Jesus on the cross. And yet...
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There is a site I found about forgiving God. The author points out that we may never know in this life why the prayers went unanswered, why the cries for help or comfort were met with silence. The idea is that we can be free to say how we feel without being scorned or scolded for our lack of acceptance and faith and that the next thing to pray for is to be able to forgive God, which I suppose really means to be able to get past it. For some, though, the damage done to their faith may never heal.
I can understand that. While I was never an atheist, I really didn't pay much attention to God for a few years. Little by little, He brought me back.
If that happens, I remind myself that it seemed like God abandoned Jesus on the cross. And yet...back.
I cannot relate to that. While Jesus's human side may have experienced the feeling of abandonment, he of course always knew what the outcome would be. I don't.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
I can understand that. While I was never an atheist, I really didn't pay much attention to God for a few years. Little by little, He brought me back.
Glad you found your path.
For some reason, half my post above was cut off. Hmm.
Whenever one of my children asked me for a hug, you can rest assured, they noticed the resulting hug.
Just curious, mordant, which of your sensory system inputs did you query to ascertain whether or not you were receiving a "hug" from God? I ask because NONE of them are attuned to receive any such "hugs." You must learn to employ a more direct approach letting your brain withdraw from your sensory system first either by extremely devout prayer or meditation. Sadly, I fear there are few who find that particular route.
Just curious, mordant, which of your sensory system inputs did you query to ascertain whether or not you were receiving a "hug" from God? I ask because NONE of them are attuned to receive any such "hugs." You must learn to employ a more direct approach letting your brain withdraw from your sensory system first either by extremely devout prayer or meditation. Sadly, I fear there are few who find that particular route.
But why must it be so difficult? Instead of it being incumbent upon the children to try to find the portals to receive parental love, should it not be that the parent is the one that throws the doors wide open and makes it known that they are there?
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