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And that is probably why you fight so hard to reject and disallow my concept of God to be used. You want to use the notion of the supernatural (which does not exist) to disparage prayer. In my view as part of God's "infinite body," disparaging prayers would be equivalent to disparaging the pain signals from our own bodies to get our conscious attention to problems.
Oh, hey, not so!
I don't "fight" or "disallow" your concept any more or less than the others, even if I could disallow such concepts. I just don't align with them is all...
I also didn't realize you believe the supernatural not to exist. We agree about that then. I also do not disparage prayer. In my view prayer is just not anything different, more or less, than hopes and wishes. Not to disparage but simply to explain my view like you do yours. What's disparaging about this?
No need for all the drama or rhetoric that tends to distort our differences here. Though I know you and others are more inclined toward that sort of drama and rhetoric beyond what I think is appropriate along these lines.
Kind of insulting. We think differently than you do.
I think you have me all wrong.
Like everything, these things have more nuances than there's often time to get into so I'll expand a bit.
I think praying IS useful and meaningful and positive. The point is, the usefulness and meaningfulness comes from YOU and the person you directed it to (as long as they know you are praying for them) and even has a collective usefulness.
There 100% is a placebo effect going on. The placebo effect is absolutely real.
My husband who works in medical / drug research has to take the placebo effect into account all the time. The power of the mind is strong but limited. A positive attitude is not going to cure you of cancer but it might help you get over a cold more quickly. If you are given a drug that you are convinced works but you've actually only been given a placebo made from starch, it still might help... a bit.
It's the same effect going on with praying. A collective group of people praying together is a beautiful thing. It's a lot of people wishing a lot of people well. Nothing wrong with that.
My point is, it's coming from YOU not god.
And no amount of praying is going to prevent a skidding car from driving into you.
And just because I don't believe in god, that doesn't stop me hoping all my family and friends and everyone on CD stays healthy.
I've had people tell me they are praying for me in the past and I'm grateful for it, because its a nice thing to do.
Can't help but bold how you start your comment here and thank you for cleaning up something like the sweepers who follow the elephants at the circus...
I let it go, because "fighting" a lost cause is not something I want to waste too much time doing anymore.
First of all, I don't expect limbs to be regrown. BUT, if christians are going to say -- as many often do -- that 'all things are possible through prayer'...then such requests for proof are not unreasonable.
It's not unlike the yearly public meeting where I would give a sort of 'state of the school' address. I didn't get up in front and say, "We are doing a great job, you just have to accept that". I would say something like, "Once again, our middle school sent more students on to the high school for science and technology than any of the other middle schools in the county...and here are the stats". I would say something like, "Of all the middle schools in our county -- 24 in all -- our test scores on the state math test were the highest (or second highest, depending on the year)". And so forth. I didn't make a claim that I couldn't back up. And if christians are going to tell me that "all things are possible through prayer", then they have to prove it if they wish to satisfy me about their claim. I expect the same from a company that claims they have the best product. I expect no more and no less from a religious group that makes great claims.
A couple of you go on and on about "metaphorical and allegorical works of literary art are taken literally", as one of our arguments. Why do we do that? Because many christians say that they are not metaphorical and allegorical. Within the past few days there was another post, from a christian, stating not only that the Adam & Eve story was true, but told us exactly where the Garden Of Eden was. That was a christian making the claim. Okay, prove it.
You think "all [our] objections are fully covered and proved". We don't agree. Period. And you just saying it over and over again isn't changing our minds. It may fit your standard of evidence; it does not fit ours.
And by the way, I feel exactly the same way about things in Buddhism. The idea that there have been multiple 'historical' Buddhas, each separated by a period of time when Buddhism nearly died out, is a fantasy. It would mean that some Australopithecan was a Buddha. No evidence for that whatsoever. The concept of enlightenment/nibnna...maybe...no actual evidence that proves it. The concept of past lives...I believe it, but I admit I can't prove it.
If you want us to accept your beliefs, then you have to satisfy our questions...and you don't. So my suggestion to you is go practice your religion as you see fit, and stop trying to force others to believe as you do. Ultimately, that's what this discussion is all about.
Not really. I feel those with evil souls/spirits will simply perish - evaporate into nothingness. It is the most logical end for them, just be done with them! Why put in positive or negative energy into such people.
Not sure about the evil souls or spirits, but sure seems to me we're all going to "evaporate into nothingness" one way or another regardless who we are or what sort of life we lived, and what's wrong with THAT notion?
Nothing far as I know, though some people will "fight and disallow" any such notion that does "no harm or foul" to anyone.
Can't help but bold how you start your comment here and thank you for cleaning up something like the sweepers who follow the elephants at the circus...
I let it go, because "fighting" a lost cause is not something I want to waste too much time doing anymore.
Noting that some of the Atheists think what they do about Theists/Religious because they lack their perceptive abilities is not a "insult".
No different than noting something mistaken a blind person thought (such as if there was nobody else in a room they were in), that a sighted person knew...because they had abilities the blind person lacked.
Not a insult of the blind person...just a description of the situation.
Just like Cruithne's last paragraph: "I've had people tell me they are praying for me in the past and I'm grateful for it, because its a nice thing to do."
Some here claim that is "insulting", even though it isn't.
Though I notice you did not mention that.
Of course...you did devolve into some puerile spew about collecting animal feces...which is indicative of nothing except where your mind is at.
Noting that some of the Atheists think what they do about Theists/Religious because they lack their perceptive abilities is not a "insult".
No different than noting something mistaken a blind person thought (such as if there was nobody else in a room they were in), that a sighted person knew...because they had abilities the blind person lacked.
Not a insult of the blind person...just a description of the situation.
Just like Cruithne's last paragraph: "I've had people tell me they are praying for me in the past and I'm grateful for it, because its a nice thing to do."
Some here claim that is "insulting", even though it isn't.
Though I notice you did not mention that.
Of course...you did devolve into some puerile spew about collecting animal feces...which is indicative of nothing except where your mind is at.
As I think it's time for me to sign off now, I'm reminded of my approach toward addressing lost causes...
As I think it's time for me to sign off now, I'm reminded of my approach toward addressing lost causes...
That figures...people who have a mind that would gratuitously gravitate to collecting animal dung...probably would think logical and reasonable debate is a "lost cause".
Golden, you're so quick to argue that you are missing the whole point.
Actually, you and others here are missing the point. It is irrational to treat the claims in the Bible as literally true and demand evidence without accepting everything else in the Bible literally, i.e., Omnimax God, etc. Using the premise that what is in the Bible is literal is a self-defeating premise.
Actually, you and others here are missing the point. It is irrational to treat the claims in the Bible as literally true and demand evidence without accepting everything else in the Bible literally, i.e., Omnimax God, etc. Using the premise that what is in the Bible is literal is a self-defeating premise.
If you assess the Bible from a literal standpoint (even as a "Devils Advocate" type argument)...all your debated issues are fully resolved.
The Omnimax Powered God that knows everything and can do anything, and has thoughts and ways that are above yours DUNNIT!
And don't question anything, because you are not to lean upon your own understanding (it's inferior), but just defer to God.
As far as suffering/evil: That is a good thing, a "fruit of the Spirit", right there with peace, joy, and love.
You may not think so...because you are leaning upon your own inferior understanding (that you were told not to do) rather than deferring to the all knowing, Omnimax Powered God.
So...there ya go. All the issues you "debate" are settled.
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