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Let's face it. They have no good answers. What they have is un-thinking answers that are close to being Pavlovian.
And right on cue.........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
Can you have a similar outcome? Sure. But we don't think of the outcome as some 'random' course of events, such as "luck". If your surgery went wrong, I wouldn't think that "God works in mysterious ways", but that perhaps He has a reason for the surgery going wrong.
There are MANY reasons the surgery might have gone wrong:
* The surgeon did not have enough experience with this particular operation.
* The patient had an anatomical anomaly that made things difficult.
* The patient had an underlying condition that prevented healing.
* The surgical nurse had a late night.
* The surgical resident left a gauze pad behind when they closed up the incision.
* The hospital made a mistake and used hydraulic fluid to disinfect surgical instruments.
* Someone forgot to wash their hands.
* The surgical team operated on the wrong side of the body.
* The surgeon has a cocaine addiction.
* The orderly got the rooms mixed up and wheeled in the wrong patient.
* The surgical suite was not cleaned well enough after the prior patient, who had an infection.
* The patient didn't follow the instructions for pre-surgical prep.
* The internal sutures tore loose.
* The anesthesiologist got distracted and delivered the wrong amount of anesthesia.
* The surgeon nicked a nerve when they removed the diseased organ.
* God had a reason for surgery going wrong.
Now... we know that every single one of those things has happened, with one exception. That is, we have actual verifiable evidence that they occurred (with one exception). Some of them happen often enough that hospitals develop policies and protocols to prevent them. Why would we skip past all the potential, rational, likely reasons... and land on the ONLY one for which we have zero evidence?
Setting aside surgeries, this same question can and should be asked for all the things we attribute to God... whether it is surviving cancer, landing a job, giving birth, being born, meeting a spouse, evolving new species, watching a volcano erupt, or finding those lost keys.
You're telling me that I'm using "that God coin". It's not a "heads *I* win, tails *you lose* situation, or a "heads, *I* win, tails *you* win" thing, either. I don't think that ending up in hell is "winning"...unless you believe that God WANTS some of us to end up in hell...
God doesn't want anyone to "lose". But He knows they will, simply because they have free will to play by the rules...or not.
Well yes. I did use an analogy and other words to help me understand what you ultimately believe, but that was related to how you interpret the events we experience in our lives. This additional belief you describe about going to Hell is another matter altogether.
Like I said at the beginning, I'm sure we can't reconcile our beliefs or ways of thinking when it comes to this sort of thing, so I just wanted to describe how your comments read to me. For whatever that might be worth and no doubt not worth much to you or anyone else for that matter.
I am confused. I didn't think this was about hell or not.
I thought you meant you guys give credit to your god and we give credit to the natural laws? And that can be ok?
You weren't helping before, by agreeing or suggesting I was "twisting" anyone's words. I was trying to get clarity where I thought it was needed or appropriate. Now on the other hand, it seems you are better understanding where I was coming from. Maybe even helping a bit too. Not sure any help really accomplishes anything of consequence either way, but thanks for the effort in any case. Especially if sincere...
we are addressing the really bad parts of what is happening around us. its not if god exist or not. Its more about the version of your god does not match observation. So we are saying ...
if your version of god existed, there is no way we would the level of horror that we do.
does that make sense?
Sez who?!
My "version" of God includes a God who is both loving AND wrathful. Just because He doesn't wipe out all of the sickness, hunger, crime, selfishness, pride and other evils RIGHT NOW, doesn't mean He doesn't have a plan to do so in the future.
Yes, God IS allowing all this bad stuff to happen...for now. And it will change, but it will change on HIS timetable; not *(y)ours*.
Quote:
Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.†“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.…Revelation 22:10-12
Christianity views God as the God of nature. But NOT just physical nature. There is 'nature' in volcanoes....in hurricanes....in tornadoes....in mudslides....that's a 'given' of God's power.
But ALSO in the 'nature' of life. In what life does.
People tend to believe in God as EITHER "all loving" OR "all evil", simply because God 'allows' that evil exists. Sometimes, what we may THINK of as "evil" isn't "evil" at all.
Let me ask you a question, Arach. If *you* knew that your child was going to experience hardship and pain, but come out of that hardship and pain and become 'better' from it, would you prevent him/her from that/those experiences...as a 'natural' cause of action?
What of the child experiencing hardship and pain that isn't going to come out of the hardship "better from it?" Or at all? I know of two such children personally. One of the most horrible experiences I've ever known a parent to experience. You? Can't say the parent ended up "better from it" after all the years of pain and suffering either.
How does your question work in all the other such cases that don't end up happily ever after?
Yes, I HAVE thought about this 'stuff', Sam. You don't need to be so condescending...
Quote:
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, Berean Study Bible. Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. Revelation 12:7
Well if you thought about it, did you wonder where or what created the dragon and his angels and why the god that created everything let the dragon it created into gods homeland?
I'm going to say something that I very rarely say. Very rarely. Mink is a hopeless case. No matter what argument one of us uses against some aspect of christianity, Mink will simply argue that we're wrong because god does not do anything wrong. If it's a surgery that would be expected to be successful, she will simply say that perhaps "you" were going to be one of the unsuccessful few...until you prayed. If the surgery goes wrong, we'd get some excuse like the ever popular "God works in mysterious ways". With people like this, reason and logic are gone. It's a classic case of being an apologist for anything related to god. How people like this explain those who don't believe and don't pray, but still have similar outcomes is one of the great mysteries of life to me.
This made me think of the time back in the late 1980s when my grandmother was condemning gay folks because god was punishing them with AIDS...because disease is how god punishes bad people. I looked at her and said, "So Auntie jean was only 39 when she died of a massive heart attack. What was god punishing her for?" I don't think anything I could have possibly said could have shocked her more than that simple question. She was emotionally stunned. And when she had composed herself, the best she could come up with was, "Well that's different".
Let's face it. They have no good answers. What they have is un-thinking answers that are close to being Pavlovian.
Interesting comment or observation here, and I can relate as I have also deemed many people who engage in this sort of exchange "beyond reason." Perhaps no different from a "hopeless case" but of course far as these people are concerned, they are not at all "hopeless." They are so entirely committed to their belief in God, their faith simply overwhelms whatever facts, reason or logic that questions or contradicts their faith. Those who don't do the same are the hopeless ones...
What is also hopeless is the notion any non-believer can beat that God coin. Heads, God wins. Tails, all non-believers lose.
Perhaps you should seek your own answers instead of constantly looking up someone else's patoot and/or expecting others to provide material for you to critique as if you are some type king.
Seek your own path or at least admit you are here to people watch only.
You seem to do a fair amount of looking up other's patoots as well, but no doubt you think you are different, because you have different beliefs and expectations about what you want to find up other's patoots.
We all seek our own path and for some that includes "comparing notes" with others we encounter along the way. Don't like it? Move along already. You agree or disagree? Fine, but please don't make out like you are doing much in the way of different.
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" sort of thing...
My "version" of God includes a God who is both loving AND wrathful. Just because He doesn't wipe out all of the sickness, hunger, crime, selfishness, pride and other evils RIGHT NOW, doesn't mean He doesn't have a plan to do so in the future.
Yes, God IS allowing all this bad stuff to happen...for now. And it will change, but it will change on HIS timetable; not *(y)ours*.
ahh, thats news to me. so your god is loving but it also has to deal with how its made also. That makes sense. Since you claim it is "wrathful", that would fall more inline with what we see. It appears that part shows your god and us are in the image of Periodic table.
yes, it will change, I say we make the next life form in two hundred years or less. And its not "us" creating anything, its the universe evolving. You position shows that your god is too. to me anyway.
so all I can say, is those position fit what we see better than some people's view on what it is.
can ask you one more question.
Since the really bad suffering we see in humans looks far worse than a life form with any compassion might allow, might it indicate that your god can't do it any different?
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