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Thank you. My own. Originally developed decades ago when I wore a younger man's clothes, after formal study of the world religions. More recently revised as a result of my experience sharing them in this forum. An experience that I can only describe as "good, bad and ugly," given how some people seem to appreciate what I'm trying to explain while others take great exception to these truths and/or my want to share them.
I got to 4 and gave up .
Science provides facts, it doesn't , cannot , address truth.
I got to 4 and gave up .
Science provides facts, it doesn't , cannot , address truth.
This is scientism.
wrong.
simply put ... the process of science uses the notion that we use what we know to describe what we don't know. It includes your god to tell ya the truth.
The process of science tends to self correct over time, That means, it corrects itself but the people involved are as excited as hell and say "hey, we were wrong all that time, how cool is that!!!"
the process of some religious people is to convince people to focus on "nobody really knows" (blind faith) to so that a person can't get a toe hold on what they are actually saying. They don't like-ka when they are shown to be wrong. They get locked into a reality based on 1000 years old technology.
Can you imagine having to deny a motor because it it goes against the horse you loved in 1834-ish?
why would you shy away from science? I mean I get shying away from some scientist, but why science?
it seems to me that some religion-ist need to avoid a fair trial.
I definitely agree with you regarding the first reality. While I also agree that there is such a thing as “universal truth,” I’m not sure that you and I are using the term in the same way. When I think of “universal truths,” I’m thinking about spiritual matters, i.e. whether or not God exists and (if He does), who or what is He? What is mankind’s relationship to Him and what was His purpose was in creating our earth and us. Clearly, even all religious people do not see eye-to-eye on these things. For atheists, the answer to the first question would be “God does not exist, so all of the other questions concerning Him are moot. To me, there are definitive, absolute, incontrovertible answers to these questions. These answers are what I would call “universal truth.” I don’t believe it’s possible for human beings to know what these truths are, but since I believe in God and in an afterlife, I believe there will come a time when we can and will know the answers, and when there will really be no need to continue to argue about them.
Wow! Thanks. Appears you are as interested in the same sorts of questions as I am. I'll see what I can do in return as best I can point by point...
I think we can all agree on what universal truth means for all of us. What is true for all of us. Upon that foundation we can all agree upon, all the rest of the questions can best be considered, maybe even answered, including all of yours. IOWs, what best foundation of truth works for all concerned?
To me, it would be more accurate to say that mankind’s beliefs stem from the books you mention, rather than the other way around. Granted, I don’t know a great deal about most religions outside of the Abrahamic ones, and while I know quite a bit about Christian denominations other than my own, I can really only speak to your statement as it pertains to Mormonism. I don’t believe that Joseph Smith came up with his own beliefs and then wrote them down, resulting in The Book of Mormon, and that because Mormons believe what Joseph Smith taught, they also believe The Book of Mormon. For me, personally, I believe the things I can say with some degree of confidence that God himself has taught me. The doctrines and teachings I learned as a Mormon child are obviously what planted the seed. Still, I have received spiritual confirmation of the correctness of some of them but not of others. My personal reality is founded solely on the beliefs that I have found a deep sense of peace in accepting. They are logical to me and try as I might, I cannot “unbelieve” them. My conviction that God exists and does interact with His creations is foremost among these. No one could change that particular personal reality. I’ve genuinely tried to entertain the possibility that I’m wrong, but I can’t go there. To me, my existence depends upon God having created me. This is one personal reality that will either become a universal reality someday or not.
I won't begin to suggest there are not more accurate ways to say what I wanted to say by way of these truths. My goal was the overall attempt to establish the basis for the conclusion(s) I draw in the end. I don't think it is more accurate to say the books came first, because obviously all holy books were written by people. Your suggestion it's the other way around involves that first reality covered in the first truth, clearly not the second, or we'd all be Mormons.
You reveal another insight about yourself and your beliefs when you mention what you learned as a "Mormon child." For every Mormon I know (and I know many), it's the same thing. Inculcation at a very young age that didn't really expose you to other books in the same way at such an impressionable age. This too gives way to that first reality vs universal truth. Truly a challenge to objective critical thinking I'm not sure you are able to perform as a result. Unlike all Mormons I know, I was not raised a Mormon, so I don't believe what Mormons do. What does this tell us? Universal truth or what we were taught to believe when we were young? If universal truth, how can a Mormon possibly demonstrate the likes in any rational reasonable manner.
Okay, so we’re clearly not on the same page when we speak of universal truth. You’d probably say that the fact that we all need oxygen to exist is a universal truth. I’d say it’s a scientific fact, and I would not be inclined to argue it. I do not, however, believe that either documented history or empirical science will ever be able to give us all of the answers. (I think you’d agree with me there.) I believe there are certain things that simply are forever going to be beyond the realm of empirical science, and that this would be true if life on earth were to continue for another few billion years. Documented history is another matter entirely. Histories are almost without exception written by the dominant factions of society, and are unfortunately seldom unbiased.
We should all be on the "same page" when we speak of universal truth. The issue is how to determine what it is, true for all of us. Right?
Yes. Truth is fact and facts are true. The simple dictionary definition; "Truth, that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality."
You are correct as well. Documented history nor empirical science will ever be able to give us all the answers. Keeping in mind both are also the product of Man, of course, but my argument is that they provide better answers than the holy books. Far better. Further more, fully understanding documented history and empirical science continues to reveal answers to questions that holy books can't do. For obvious reasons. In fact, religion continues to retard scientific advancement in ways most religious people hate to admit.
I've got a great book for you to read about that if you are interested in still more about all this.
You are also very right to point at the problem of bias. Confirmation bias is a very significant influence when it comes to what we believe, but where is the problem most profound? Most difficult to overcome? What does religion teach, still the same way to this day very different from what science teaches us? Seems obvious where the problem or challenge is the most profound and/or where the effort to apply objective critical thinking is considered more important. I mean even just allowed...
I would definitely agree that faith comes from the human inclination to speculate beyond what science can prove. Beyond that, however, we disagree. I believe it exists because of an actual bond that exists between us and the Higher Power many of us refer to as “God.” If we were not, as human beings, so indelibly tied to our Creator, I believe that we would not even be inclined to feel the spiritual pull towards Him. (I recognize, of course, that not all people are so inclined.) I read a really good book on the subject a while back, and the author expressed that idea so much more articulately than I can. If you’re interested, I’ll try to dig up what he said.
Well, I got through the first five of them. I'm afraid brevity has never been my strong suit. I'll tackle the remaining five tomorrow.
Yes please. I'm always interested to read about what you are referring to, but to be honest I've done a lot of that sort of reading out of respect for people who seem interested in "comparing notes" with me about such things. The last book I read along the same lines for the same reason was a book recommended to me by a very close Mormon evangelist in fact. He is the father of one of my best friends from back in high school days. We're all still very good friends after these many decades. Unfortunately the book he thought to be so convincing about his beliefs only further served to convince me people will believe in just about anything about their religion when that sort of bias pervades. I mean talk about preposterous, but out of respect I just told him (now in his 90s) that I couldn't believe all his book asks or assumes me to believe.
Meanwhile, here's more along the same lines for you to consider if you are so inclined...
ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth.
While of course there is only one universal reality or truth, the above is simply to explain how we humans nevertheless don't all agree about what that one universal reality. To point out how people will consider whatever they choose to be reality as far as they are concerned regardless the truth, and how this has us grappling with essentially two realities. The one as we perceive it to be. The second reality is the true reality for all of us, whether we personally, accurately, perceive what it is or not.
Reality is not truth.
There is no such thing as universal reality or ”true” reality for all of us. Each of us have our own, conditioned by our circumstances, our history, experience, intuition, and ... our truth.
Facts and data are one way of defining reality.
That reality can change when facts and data change, as they often do.
Since this was you first truth from which all the other “truths” flow, it doesn’t quite.
Reality is not truth.
There is no such thing as universal reality or ”true” reality for all of us. Each of us have our own, conditioned by our circumstances, our history, experience, intuition, and ... our truth.
Facts and data are one way of defining reality.
That reality can change when facts and data change, as they often do.
Since this was you first truth from which all the other “truths” flow, it doesn’t quite.
This is a common confusion. Alarming and even horrifyingly common. It is almost human basic thinking but very misleading.
(1) truth in the sense of Fact. What is (reality) no matter what humans think about it. Science has the 'best explanation' (screams of protest form Prof. Stavrakopulou) of that. You may claim that 'facts and data changes, but of course the facts are facts and 'data' is constantly updated, but that doesn't invalidate the previous data, as science -skeptics like to claim ("science is always getting things wrong"). Despite Quantum, Newton's laws are still just as valid as when Newton discovered them
(2) truth from the point of view of humanity. Aside from individual conditioning 'true' Reality (what we are and how we think), humanity has grown to be what it is and how we think. Art, music and literature all exist. But they aren't universal truths; they are human constructs. Just as morality, hate and love. Without humans doing them, they wouldn't exist.
Thus such truth and reality depends upon humanity existing at all and upon what we think, either instinctively or by consensus. It is not universal reality in the sense of planets exist, Dinosaurs existed (true even when we knew nothing about them), and quantum does what it does whether we understand it or not.
But Art music and indeed morality (aside from the instinctive basics) are what we say they are. They do not exist apart from humans.
Like it or hate it,the following is only my opinion:
A Blue Collar Aprroach to the 10 truths.....
1) I believe in one reality............I am of the universe as well as you.
2) We all have the ability to know everything that exists in the universe but do not use all of our senses.
3) My first reality was being held and knowing I was loved.
4) The second reality is knowing all that exists in the universe I can seek out and choose of my own free will.
5) Anything that man can think of is eventually created.
6) We are all one with the universe and God is in all of us just under different names.
7) There are common questions we all ask. There are even more questions we do not share.
8) The race is over when one no longer desires to question. The fortunate earn inner peace.
9) As many as the stars in the sky all work to keep their distance while belonging to each other.
10) The light at the end of the tunnel is the same one that brings us into existence only from the other side.
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