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IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in a trinity. The Jewish idea of Gd is that Gd is One and Indivisible. Gd cannot be divided up into separate parts, where each part is unequal to each of the other parts, yet somehow they are one and the same. The Hebrew Scriptures describe Gd as an absolute One, but the Christian Scriptures describe Gd as divisible into three parts called a trinity. In the Christians' scriptures, Jesus at one point claims to have different knowledge than other parts of the Christian trinity. For example, Matthew 24:36, or Mark 13:32. In another verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian trinity, for example, Luke 23:34. And in Matthew 26:42, Jesus' will is not the same as the will of the Father. Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:19. Furthermore, Jesus supposedly said that the punishment for blaspheming against one part of the trinity is not the same punishment for blaspheming against another part of the trinity. In the Hebrew Scriptures, however, Gd is One, as we read in Deuteronomy 6:4, as well as in Isaiah 44:6, where Gd tells us, 'I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Gd.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son, a divine piece of Gd. And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'Besides me there is no Gd,' it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons, and there is no trinity.
A MORE COMPLETE EXPLANATION...
Just because there are various manifestations of Gd in the Bible, this does not mean that each manifestation is to be regarded as separate and unequal to Gd, yet somehow at the same time one and the same as Gd. It also does not mean that each manifestation of Gd is to be treated differently. The Hebrew Scriptures tells us that Gd is One.
Hear, O Israel: The Etrnl is our Gd, the Etrnl is one. [Deuteronomy 6:4]
But how do we know that the term 'one' at the end of the above verse, does not refer to some sort of compound unity, that Gd is made up of different parts that total up to one? The reason is that the word 'one' is an adjective. Here it is describing a proper noun, which is the word 'The Etrnl.' (In Hebrew, this is a one-word designation.) Most people forget that the word that is here translated as 'The Etrnl' is actually a Name, the holiest name for Gd, told to us in Exodus 3:14-15. 'Gd' is a job description; the four-letter Name of Gd, on the other hand, is Gd's personal Name. When the word, 'one' modifies a personal name, it must mean that this entity is only One, not a compound One, but rather an absolute One.
As an example, let us consider a man named Bill Jones. Bill may be 'Dad' to his kids, but 'Honey' to his wife, 'Billy' to his parents, and 'Mr. Jones' or 'Boss' to his employees. However, in all instances Bill Jones has the same knowledge, the same power, and the same will. In the Christians' New Testament, Jesus at one point claims to have different knowledge than other parts of the Christian trinity. For example, Matthew 24:36, or Mark 13:32.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [Matthew 24:36]
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. [Mark 13:32]
In another verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian trinity, for example, Luke 23:34, where he must ask the part which is called the Father to forgive, instead of doing it himself:
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [Luke 23:34]
And in Matthew 26:42 or Mark 14:36, Jesus' will is not the same as the will of the Father.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. [Matthew 26:42]
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. [Mark 14:36]
Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father or with Gd, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:18-19:
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. [John 14:28] And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, Gd. [Luke 18:18-19]
Furthermore, Jesus is quoted as saying that the punishment for blaspheming against one part of the trinity is not the same punishment for blaspheming against another part of the trinity. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. [Matthew 12:32]
The parts of the trinity cannot be one and the same. They are separate, they have different strengths, different powers, different wills, different knowledge from each other, therefore the concept of the trinity is not monotheistic.
Some Christians, including Messianic 'Jews,' try to interpret Deuteronomy 6:4, the biblical verse which states Gd's essential unity, to allow for the concept of the trinity. From the website of the Messianic 'Jewish' Alliance of America (MJAA):
'We believe that the Shema, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our Gd, the Lord is one' (Deuteronomy 6:4), teaches that Gd is Echad [one], as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness...and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matthew 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).'
Not only are these concepts of a 'composite unity' and 'plural oneness' contradictory and untenable, as well as unbiblical, as we have seen, but there are more than just three manifestations of Gd in the Hebrew Scriptures.
There is of course, the Spirit of Gd, as we read in Genesis 1:2:
And The Spirit Of Gd (Ruach Elohm) moved over the face of the waters. [Genesis 1:2]
But there is also an Evil Spirit of Gd, as we read in I Samuel 16:23:
And it came to pass, when The Evil Spirit Of Gd(Ruach Elohm Raah) was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. [I Samuel 16:23]
There is also a Lying Spirit of Gd, in I Kings 22:23:
Now therefore, behold, the Etrnl hath put a lying spirit (Ruach Sheker) in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Etrnl hath spoken evil concerning thee. [I Kings 22:23]
In Exodus 12:23, we are told that Gd will smite the Egyptians. But later in the same verse, we see that it is the Destroyer who smites the Egyptians.
For the Etrnl will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Etrnl will pass over the door, and will not suffer the Destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. [Exodus 12:23]
One could claim that the Destroyer should be seen as a Person in Gd, just as the Spirit of Gd is seen as a Person in Gd. To this we could add that the Lying Spirit of Gd should be seen as a Person in Gd, and the Evil Spirit of Gd should be seen as a Person in Gd. This would mean that instead of the trinity in the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit, one should have the Father, the son, the Holy Spirit, the Lying Spirit, and the Evil Spirit, as well as the Destroyer. Should we add to this the Burning Bush?
Why did the Christian community stop at the three of the trinity, when they could have also had more persons in the supposed compound unity of Gd? The reason is that the highest deities in the other religions of the area also came in threes:
Babylon had: [1] Anu [2] Bel and [3] Ena;
Egypt had: [1] Osiris [2] Horus and [3] Isis
India had: [1] Brahma [2] Vishnu and [3] Shiva;
Rome had: [1] Jupiter [2] Pluto and [3] Neptune;
Greece had: [1] Zeus [2] Hades and [3] Poseidon;
And so the Christian community took their own trinity of only the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit, disregarding the Lying Spirit, the Evil Spirit, and the Destroyer, not to mention the Burning Bush.
Jews are taught that Gd is One, Gd is Indivisible, and this is found throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. For example, as we read in Isaiah 44:6:
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Gd. [Isaiah 44:6]
When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. If Gd had a father, Isaiah would have quoted Gd's word as, 'I am the second.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son. If Gd had a son, Isaiah would have told us that Gd said, 'I am the second-to-last.' And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'Besides me there is no Gd,' it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons. If Gd shared or would later share Gd's Gd-ness with Jesus, Isaiah would have told us that Gd's words were, 'Besides me and the son that will come after me, there is no Gd.'
This is why Gd told us in the Ten Commandments, in Exodus 20:3, 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.' Even if you think they are gods, you cannot have them before Gd. You do not pray to them in order to get to Gd, and you do not pray in their names. Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips. [Psalm 16:4]
Christians may tell us, 'Behold Your Gd,' but the last time we heard something similar was in Exodus 32:4, when the ex-slaves pointed to the Golden Calf and said, 'Eileh elohecha -- these are your gods.'
I don't think it's exactly news to anyone that the Jews don't believe in a Trinity, Richard. But you do get the Clever Poster Award for waiting for Trinity Sunday to post the above.
I just came back from the Eucharist, where my priest made his annual disclaimer about the Trinity being a mystery and therefore not being something that can be understood by humanity or fully explained. He does make his attempt, using the root of the word "person", which referred to the amplifier portion of an actor's mask worn to demonstrate who a particular character was in a play to demonstrate that "person" didn't mean at the time of the Council of Nicea what it means now--an individual--and went on to demonstrate that every one us has more than one person--he used himself as an example: an hour before being the dog walker, now the priest, and after church he will go home and be a husband.
The sermon went on with a history lesson of Arians and Trinitarians whacking one another over their disparity in the belief of this concept and ended with an admonition for us to remember that God is love and that we are to love God and one another and not forget that in our arguments over points of theology too difficult for our understanding.
Christians believe there is only one God. The nature of God is love, no matter how we humans view Him. That does not change. Yes, in Christian theology, the mystery is that God has made Himself known to us in three Persons, but God is still ONE.
I don't think it's exactly news to anyone that the Jews don't believe in a Trinity, Richard. But you do get the Clever Poster Award for waiting for Trinity Sunday to post the above.
I just came back from the Eucharist, where my priest made his annual disclaimer about the Trinity being a mystery and therefore not being something that can be understood by humanity or fully explained. He does make his attempt, using the root of the word "person", which referred to the amplifier portion of an actor's mask worn to demonstrate who a particular character was in a play to demonstrate that "person" didn't mean at the time of the Council of Nicea what it means now--an individual--and went on to demonstrate that every one us has more than one person--he used himself as an example: an hour before being the dog walker, now the priest, and after church he will go home and be a husband.
The sermon went on with a history lesson of Arians and Trinitarians whacking one another over their disparity in the belief of this concept and ended with an admonition for us to remember that God is love and that we are to love God and one another and not forget that in our arguments over points of theology too difficult for our understanding.
Christians believe there is only one God. The nature of God is love, no matter how we humans view Him. That does not change. Yes, in Christian theology, the mystery is that God has made Himself known to us in three Persons, but God is still ONE.
Peace be with you.
Christians do not believe in One G-d, they believe in multiple gods...Obviously you did not read the post nor analyze it...When one reads the OT one sees no mysteries ,all of a sudden one has the NT and many mysteries...But, that is the point, you quoted your priest and not the bible...
I skipped most of your verse quoting, but I need to take exception to your arbitrary declaration that others cultures pantheons were arranged with a trinity at the top.
I am no expert on all if these cultures, but you miss several important deities. For the Romans, you missed Mars, for the Egyptions you missed Ra, Greece had Apollo, Hera and Aphrodite.
So you really expect someone to take your opinion or thoughts written above seriously when you cannot even bring yourself to actually spell the word God?
I ain't surprised...Most people are too lazy to actually give anything an in-depth look, a good analysis...
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
but I need to take exception to your arbitrary declaration that others cultures pantheons were arranged with a trinity at the top.
I am no expert on all if these cultures, but you miss several important deities. For the Romans, you missed Mars, for the Egyptions you missed Ra, Greece had Apollo, Hera and Aphrodite.
Yea, well argue that with the Jews at the website that I also posted a link to...
So you really expect someone to take your opinion or thoughts written above seriously when you cannot even bring yourself to actually spell the word God?
OMG...That is just SO childish of you...Let's flip this around, do really expect anyone to take you seriously when you can't even respect G-d enough to put a dash where the o is?...
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