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dumb question I know.. but when were the ministering angels created?
There are two opinions, the first opinion which is the major one is the fifth day along with birds and other flying animals. The other opinion is the second day. The second opinion isn't very well supported.
Care to explain why in every instance that Elokim is used a singular verb is also used?
Judaic monotheism has now become Christian monotheism. We believe in One God, a united One, made up of three personalities Who are united in will, mind, and purpose so much that it is often hard to distinguish between Them.
In the Old Testament, the first name given to us for God is "Elohim". This is the plural form of "El" which means "Almighty God." Elohim occurs over 2000 times in the Bible.
Genesis 1:1
"B.e.r.e.s.h.i.t.h bara Elohim eth hashamayim veeth haarets."
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."
(note: bizarre punctuation to avoid text modifications from profanity filter)
"Elohim is joined by plural adjectives, plural forms of verbs, and plural pronouns. (Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, 20:13, 31:7,53). This is the first revelation of God to mankind, that the Godhead is made up of more than one personality.
The Bible has frequent references to God with pronouns that are plural.
Genesis 1:26
"Let Us make man in Our image..."
Genesis 3:22
"Behold, the man is become one of Us."
Genesis 11:7
"Go to, let Us go down and there confound their language."
Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?"
Conversations of One of the Trinity to Another of the Trinity are recorded in Scripture.
Hebrews 10:9
"Then said He, Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God."
Hebrews 10:5
"When He cometh into the world, He saith, Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared Me."
John 12:28
"Father, glorify Thy name, Then there came a voice from heaven, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
Psalms 16:10
"For Thou wilt not leave My soul in hell (sheol), neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption."
Psalms 2:7
"The Lord hath said unto Me, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee..."
Psalms 110:1
"The Lord (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool..."
The us in Genesis is the Trinity, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and Word was God. He was in the beginning with God". The Word here is Jesus, He always been.
Isn't Genesis from the Torah and the Jews don't believe that Christ is God?
I'm with everyone else God,Jesus and the Holy Spirit would be us. The O.T. talks about the Messiah coming weather the Jews believe it was Jesus or not. Jesus has always been with his Father even before HE was born on earth. At least this is what I have read and been told.
In the Old Testament, the first name given to us for God is "Elohim". This is the plural form of "El" which means "Almighty God." Elohim occurs over 2000 times in the Bible.
Actually, it literally means Lord. But again, thanks for your guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scamp
Genesis 1:1 "B.e.r.e.s.h.i.t.h bara Elohim eth hashamayim veeth haarets." "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."
(note: bizarre punctuation to avoid text modifications from profanity filter)
I bet you think that's the literal translations too.
Moderator cut: Personal Attack
As an example, let's take the first word of the bible, be'reshis. The first word is be'reshis not ba'reshis meaning that the "The" in "In The beginning" is even more inappropriate. Also, the literal translation would be First, or At First, not In the beginning because be'reshis comes from the word rishon, meaning first. If they wanted to say, In The Beginning, they would have used ba'hatkhaka.
Quote:
The Bible has frequent references to God with pronouns that are plural.
Is fish singular or plural? what about sheep? Just like in english there are a few adjectives and verbs that can go both ways. If you look at the Torah, there are over 2000 times that Elokim appears. The best you can do is site what? 3-4 examples where it can go both ways?
Also, do you really think quoting NT scripture will suddenly make me see the error of my ways? highly doubtful, and if you want to argue trinity, stick w/ the Jewish bible.
Actually, it literally means Lord. But again, thanks for your guess.
*snip*
Also, do you really think quoting NT scripture will suddenly make me see the error of my ways? highly doubtful, and if you want to argue trinity, stick w/ the Jewish bible.
I merely answered your question, which I recognized was not one of inquiry, but of baiting. I seriously doubt anyone could dissuade you, because you do not seek understanding, only the sport of contention.
If you wish to belittle my knowledge, that is fine, as I am the least of His creatures. I study and am desirous to know more. What I have stated is hardly revelation over the last 2,000 years. If you take exception, then I am in good company in my error.
Yes it is translated correctly, as it is written in the Midrash regarding this exact verse...
Whoever wishes to err will err... Instead let them learn from their creator who created all, yet when he came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels"... One who sincerely seeks the truth will see it; one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme wiill find it.
Which category of people do you think you fall into?
The bolded sentence doesn't really mean anything. Its like saying that you always find that which you have lost in the last place you looked.
I also have to guess if you ask me a question or accuse me of something?
But to show you my 'ahem, cough, cough' intellectual superiority I will answer it nonetheless:
I fall into the category of man who knows that when he is afraid, it is not something external that is causing the fear or rage, but something internal. I often am inflicted with an internal struggle. I was only able to accept these depressions when I understood the Indian (as in Native American) story called:
Quote:
Two dogs fighting.
The way the chief told me, the story goes like this.
This guy, I think it was another Indian guy...he was a good guy, but I think he had some problems in the past. Maybe he got in trouble with the law a bit here and there. Maybe he had a rough childhood. Or maybe he fell in with the wrong crowd.... .Or maybe just in general he wasn't living up to his potential for whatever reason.
And in describing his inner struggles, he says to the chief, "There are 2 dogs inside me. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good."And when I heard that, I really understood this guy. I knew that 1 dog was like your dreams and good intentions. He is full of purpose. And order. He maybe represents your respect for others and your respect for yourself. Respect for what you can be if you put your heart into it.
And the other dog...he has no respect for anything. He is like a rabid beast. Crazy and self-indulgent. He blames everyone else for his sickness. He lashes out at every opportunity. He loves nothing but wallowing in the hot darkness of his anger.
So someone asks this guy, this Indian guy ], a question. someone asks him which dog usually wins.
And the guy sort of looks down and thinks about it for a while. he doesn't say anything for a long time. And then after a moment's reflection, he answers. He says this: "The dog that wins is the one that I feed the most."
I prefer the Indian story of 2 dogs fighting over the Buddhist story about the turtle and the scorpion or the Christian fall of man. Although all 3 stories explain the good and evil in humanity I prefer 2 dogs fighting because it doesn’t judge you or give you an excuse to act a certain way. But it also doesn’t set up a ridiculous high standard if you try to be good or that you should deny your sexual nature in order to be good (or at least have no gay sex). But hey, this is just my opinion.
I merely answered your question, which I recognized was not one of inquiry, but of baiting. I seriously doubt anyone could dissuade you, because you do not seek understanding, only the sport of contention.
If you wish to belittle my knowledge, that is fine, as I am the least of His creatures. I study and am desirous to know more. What I have stated is hardly revelation over the last 2,000 years. If you take exception, then I am in good company in my error.
Or its because on this paticular subject (Hebrew grammar)... you don't know the language. I do; I speak it fluently. In fact, English is my second language... Speaking of which, I don't understand your sentance about good company.
I guess this is my problem, christians claim to believe in one G-d w/ 3 parts. That's fine, doesn't bother me. I guess i have a problem with them when they take Elokim (techniqually plural) but always singular when refering to G-d and saying this supports the 3 for 1 theory. If it truley supported the 3 for 1 idea, it would be plural in every spot not a total of... 7-8 or however number you quoted. Or even worse, I've heard some people argue it refers to jesus and the father only. That theory can't even be supported because in Hebrew grammar, there are two types of plural, pair plural (2) and more plural (3+).
Nice post TrickyD. I had never heard of the Indian story, cute punchline.
Just discussed this in a class I am taking. The same passage was brought up for discussion. I had assumed the "us " was an early reference to the trinity. The reference helps of my bible however said that when God was creating the world he was speaking to divine beings in his "heavenly court" so it was stated as us. Also said that it was alluding to mankinds godlike rule over fish birds and animals. Kind of a royal status.
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Isn't Genesis from the Torah and the Jews don't believe that Christ is God?
Its like saying that you always find that which you have lost in the last place you looked.
I prefer the Indian story of 2 dogs fighting over the Buddhist story about the turtle and the scorpion or the Christian fall of man. Although all 3 stories explain the good and evil in humanity I prefer 2 dogs fighting because it doesn’t judge you or give you an excuse to act a certain way. But it also doesn’t set up a ridiculous high standard if you try to be good or that you should deny your sexual nature in order to be good (or at least have no gay sex).
But hey, this is just my opinion.
