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2 Pet 3:14-17
Be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the lonsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his apistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the scripture. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall form your own stedfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked.
What is this supposed to prove? That Peter was Paul's yes-man? No surprise there!
So how exactly can you rationalize that the original Greek is in error? If you don't understand the original Greek as Paul wrote it is it not you who are in fact "untaught"?
It is highly unlikely that Peter wrote Second Peter, but even if he did, his admonition about Paul's writings being misinterpreted by the uneducated and being used to make claims about the gospel that were not intended certainly seems particularly apt though I would guess that we might both say the same thing but from different viewpoints.
Strange that you would ask a question that the Bible has the answer to. but in case you haven't took the opprtunity to Go to bible.org. or gospel.com and you should be directed to all the Holy scriptures that will give you the results you're looking for. The answer
God endorses Heterosexuality throughout the Bible.
In order for me to make my point clear, I need to first discuss how many times fornication is discussed in the bible. The word fornication is derived fromt he Greek word,"porneia" , and is normally translated in the King James Version of the Bible as "fornication." The word porn and pornography comes from this same Greek word. There are 32 verses in the original Greek versions of the Christian Scriptures that contain the word. It means illicit sexual intercourse adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, metaph. the worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols.
Some examples are:
Matthew 5:32: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery..."
Romans 1:29-31: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
1 Corinthians 5:1: "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."
1 Corinthians 7:2: "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
Galatians 5:19-20: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies..."
Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Revelation 18:3: "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."
What's very interesting about many of these verses that deal with fornication or porneia is that they are used in the context of heterosexuals fornicating. I make this point because homosexuals are excluded because of them already being turned over by God to a reprobate mind as Romans 1:28 clearly shows.
The point I am making is that (some scriptures translates the Greek Word adokimos in Romans 1:28 as , reprobate KJV, vile or debased NKJV). The Greek word here is very crucial in understanding what Paul is arguing in context for that time period, and in context for anyone who turns away from God. Adokimos can be defined as: not standing the test, not approved properly used of metals and coins that which does not prove itself such as it ought unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate
Knowing this, would it make sense that a person who can not stand up to God's test,who's mind has become reprobate, debased or vile could be born again to enter into His kingdom. The point Paul clearly makes in the context of that time is that he is writing to the Romans who already knew and fully understood that it was unnatural for them to have homosexual sex when so many men and women were already engaging in that unnatural act. The mere fact that this is even mentioned in Romans should be a wake up call for anyone who may be HABITUALLY engaging in any of those sins.
The key thing to note in these verses is that these people Paul is referring to were not TRULY BORN AGAIN and that they were formerly professing Christians who did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in their hearts. These same people reverted to Paganism, and who engaged in ritual sexual behavior as a part of their newly adopted Pagan services. During these rituals, the Pagans were whipped into such a state of sexual frenzy that they went against their heterosexual nature and started engaging in sexual behavior with members of the same sex.
Its quite clear that Paul condemns such behavior. He concludes that Pagan worship will inevitably leads to other negative behavior: "...unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, [and] unmerciful." Therefore, God, who is a God of order, never intended for a man to natually sleep with a man or a woman to naturally sleep with a woman. Had it been so, I strongly believe that we all would have been born hermaphadites, and this issue would not be even an issue today.
If we go to Genesis 2:18, 22-24, it says : And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. This scripture clearly sums it all up; the union between a man and a woman is set by God's natural order and plan. You don't have to be a Greek scholar to understand what God's main purpose for Man was in those verses.
It is clear that Adam, a man, needs companionship, and a woman offers him that as a blessing from God. Also, it is evident that sexual intercourse results in a man and woman becoming one flesh. We can call two gay men or lesbian women together as natural as a heterosexual couple's union, but the reality of the matter is that it is not natural at all. Two men may be able to have sexual intercourse, but that type of intercourse that they are having is not natural nor is a man's anus naturally designed for anal intercourse the way a woman's vagina is designed for it. God designed the anus as a muscle to EXCRETE WASTE from the body, not to inject any thing in it as to simulate the NATURAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN.
I keep hearing the argument that the bible really doesn't teach against being a homosexual, and that the English translations are poor translations to condemn homosexuality. I'm also hearing that a gay person is born this way, and as a result of being born this way, it is as natural for him to be gay as it is as natural for a person to be straight. He is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and therefore, if God is love then He understands, knows this person's heart, and allows this person to be gay without any condemnation. A straight man can make the same argument about being born straight, that he's a sex addict, he just can't stop sleeping around with multiple women, and because if he tries to commit and get married, all he's going to do is cheat on his wife. So since he's a sex addict, God knows his heart and therefore he should be given a pass as well.
WE AREN'T GIVEN ANY EXCUSES FOR SIN. The bible teaches that our sins are forgiven when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives, Repent of our sins, and as a result of that become truly Born Again so that we don't continue to habitually drown in sin after God called us to Him. Jesus said in Luke 9:23 that if anyone desires to come after Me, let him DENY himself, and take up his CROSS daily, and follow me. All we must do is follow Jesus, obey God's commandments, and stop using EXCUSES for why it's ok to FORNICATE AND LIVE IN SIN, WHEN NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO TWIST GOD'S WORD, A HABITUAL FORNICATOR WILL NOT SEE NOR ENTER GOD'S KINGDOMbe it a gay, lesbian, or straight christian.
In order for me to make my point clear, I need to first discuss how many times fornication is discussed in the bible. The word fornication is derived fromt he Greek word,"porneia" , and is normally translated in the King James Version of the Bible as "fornication." The word porn and pornography comes from this same Greek word. There are 32 verses in the original Greek versions of the Christian Scriptures that contain the word. It means illicit sexual intercourse adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, metaph. the worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols.
Some examples are:
Matthew 5:32: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery..."
Romans 1:29-31: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
1 Corinthians 5:1: "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."
1 Corinthians 7:2: "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
Galatians 5:19-20: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies..."
Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Revelation 18:3: "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."
What's very interesting about many of these verses that deal with fornication or porneia is that they are used in the context of heterosexuals fornicating. I make this point because homosexuals are excluded because of them already being turned over by God to a reprobate mind as Romans 1:28 clearly shows.
The point I am making is that (some scriptures translates the Greek Word adokimos in Romans 1:28 as , reprobate KJV, vile or debased NKJV). The Greek word here is very crucial in understanding what Paul is arguing in context for that time period, and in context for anyone who turns away from God. Adokimos can be defined as: not standing the test, not approved properly used of metals and coins that which does not prove itself such as it ought unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate
Knowing this, would it make sense that a person who can not stand up to God's test,who's mind has become reprobate, debased or vile could be born again to enter into His kingdom. The point Paul clearly makes in the context of that time is that he is writing to the Romans who already knew and fully understood that it was unnatural for them to have homosexual sex when so many men and women were already engaging in that unnatural act. The mere fact that this is even mentioned in Romans should be a wake up call for anyone who may be HABITUALLY engaging in any of those sins.
The key thing to note in these verses is that these people Paul is referring to were not TRULY BORN AGAIN and that they were formerly professing Christians who did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in their hearts. These same people reverted to Paganism, and who engaged in ritual sexual behavior as a part of their newly adopted Pagan services. During these rituals, the Pagans were whipped into such a state of sexual frenzy that they went against their heterosexual nature and started engaging in sexual behavior with members of the same sex.
Its quite clear that Paul condemns such behavior. He concludes that Pagan worship will inevitably leads to other negative behavior: "...unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, [and] unmerciful." Therefore, God, who is a God of order, never intended for a man to natually sleep with a man or a woman to naturally sleep with a woman. Had it been so, I strongly believe that we all would have been born hermaphadites, and this issue would not be even an issue today.
If we go to Genesis 2:18, 22-24, it says : And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. This scripture clearly sums it all up; the union between a man and a woman is set by God's natural order and plan. We can call two gay men or lesbian women together as natural as as a heterosexual couple's union, but the reality of the matter is that you are deceived, and the union of a gay or lesbian couple is not endorsed anywhere in scripture.
I keep hearing the argument that the bible really doesn't teach against being a homosexual, and that the English translations are poor translations to condemn homosexuality. I'm also hearing that a gay person is born this way, and as a result of being born this way, it is as natural for him to be gay as it is as natural for a person to be straight. He is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and therefore, if God is love then He understands, knows this person's heart, and allows this person to be gay without any condemnation. A straight man can make the same argument about being born straight, and that he's a sex addict, how he just can't stop sleeping around with multiple women because if he tries to commit and get married, all he's going to do is cheat on his wife. So since he's a sex addict, God knows his heart and therefore he should be given a pass as well. As I said before, WE AREN'T GIVEN ANY EXCUSES FOR SIN. The bible teaches that our sins are forgiven when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives, and as a result of that become truly Born Again so that we don't continue to habitually drown in sin that God called us to him to stop engaging. Jesus said in Luke 9:23 that if anyone desires to come after Me, let him DENY himself, and take up his CROSS daily, and follow me. All we must do is follow Jesus, obey God's commandments, and stop using EXCUSES for why it's ok to FORNICATE AND LIVE IN SIN, WHEN NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO TWIST GOD'S WORD, A HABITUAL FORNICATOR WILL NOT SEE NOR ENTER GOD'S KINGDOM
It is highly unlikely that Peter wrote Second Peter, but even if he did, his admonition about Paul's writings being misinterpreted by the uneducated and being used to make claims about the gospel that were not intended certainly seems particularly apt though I would guess that we might both say the same thing but from different viewpoints.
Gee, when all else fails, attack the person individually! way to go! How about using scripture to back up your point.
2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a Bond servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have Obatined like precious faith with us by the rightousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. (clearly shows, Peter wrote 2 Pet)
Gal, 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from him who called you into the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you then what we have preached to you, then let him be accursed. As we said before, so now we say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you then what you have received, then let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
The question as to whether you can be gay, bisexual, or a lesbian and God Fearing is without a doubt----Yes.
But the bible is very clear in the NKJV 1Corinthians 6:9-11 that Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adultereres, nor homosexuals, nor sodomits, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU. BUT YOU WERE WASHED, BUT YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, BUT YOU WERE JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.
Here it is quite clear that a person could have been once and the key word here is ONCE a fornicator, gay, adulterer, and an alcoholic, and if this person is truly repentant, BORN AGAIN, then he or she can inherit and enter God's kingdom. Our old sinful fornicating, gay, alcoholic, and adultery nature will never be buried as long as we are in this sinful body. No body is perfect, and some of us will go to our graves struggling with something. Paul even admited to the Corinthians about a thorn he had in his flesh. He said in 2Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might DEPART from me. And He said to me, "MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU, FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therfore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in need, I persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake, for when i am WEAK, then I AM STRONG.
We can see quite clearly that if we fall or stumble, not out of habitual sin, but out of weakness, that God's grace is sufficient as long as we are truly repentant.
Because it is quite evident that we can fall back into those types of sins, Paul makes it clear that our changed hearts and the Holy Spirit's indwelling in our hearts are what washes us clean from ever habitually committing those sins again.
Another way of looking at this is that it is in our nature to rebel against God and because of that, we need to have God's Holy Spirit indwelling in our hearts. The Holy Spirit, who's our comforter, helps us daily to deny ourselves where we can truly follow Jesus by taking up our cross and because of that, if we are truly in Christ, then we can say that we are a new creation where old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new 2Corinithians 5:17.
We should be Examin[ing] ourselves as to whether [we] are in the faith. TEST[ing] [our]sleves. 2Corinthians 13:5 NKJV. A gay, bisexual, lesbian, adulterer, and alcoholic person have victory in knowing that they once engaged in those sins, and eventhough they may have the tendency to engage in those PAST sins again, the Holy Spirit convicts them on a daily basis to abstain from those sins because He's there to protect and guide them in the name of Jesus.
Jesus said in Luke 9:23 that if anyone desires to come after Me, let him DENY himself, and take up his CROSS daily, and follow me. All we must do is follow Jesus, obey God's commandments, and stop using EXCUSES for why it's ok to FORNICATE AND LIVE IN SIN, WHEN NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO TWIST GOD'S WORD, A HABITUAL FORNICATOR WILL NOT SEE NOR ENTER GOD'S KINGDOMbe it a gay, lesbian, or straight christian.
As you cited in Matthew, Jesus was referring to the married. You're right. We must follow Jesus and obey God's commandments which, last I looked, were ten.
If Jesus says, "deny yourself," then truly deny yourself by laying aside your prejudices, your hatreds, and the presumption that any man, living or dead, has the power to judge men's souls.
If Jesus says, "take up his cross," then we must forgive the sins of the world as he did by forgiving our enemies, loving them as we love ourselves. We must do our work not in jealous self-righteousness but in compassion, laying aside our own needs for those of others.
"And," is your commandment, not God's, not Jesus's. If you truly want to follow Jesus then follow the laws of Jesus, not those of men who have set themselves up in judgment. If you say, "stop making excuses," then I fervently hope that you will use this opportunity to do the same. Our God is ever loving, ever compassionate. The power of Grace is His alone and as Jesus said, God is kind to all his children.
Both cannot be right.
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. -John 3:16-17
You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments. -Matthew 22:36-40
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.-Luke 6:35-37
It is not what you eat, what you wear, or even what you do and that includes who you have sex with. It is the intention in your heart and a heart that is full of love, mercy, humility, acceptance, and forgiveness is the heart that truly follows God.
These are the keys to salvation as given us not by any apostle or prophet, but by Jesus himself. Paul is right in this case. He says the hearts of the false prophets have been perverted by their false assumptions. Their sin originates in their hearts because their hearts are not full of love. The origin of the sin is the intention, not the act. A wayward soul will naturally fill with those acts Paul listed, but it is the heart itself that is sinful, not the acts because acts cannot be sinful without the intention of committing sin.
A man who uses his sexuality to fulfill only himself, to use other people as objects, who uses his lusts to satisfy only his lust, is committing sin. A man who uses his sexuality to fulfill the committment of marriage, to give of himself freely, with humility, to express his love, and the desire to join his soul with his partner in love is fulfilling God's wish for us.
So if two men or two women join together in marriage and love each other wholeheartedly and selflessly, then there is not a single passage in the Bible, not an admonishment from a pulpit, not a Christian living or dead, that can refute it and say it is unholy in the eyes of God for no person, living or dead, prophet, king, apostle, or pope, who can countermand the words of the Son of God.
I hope you rejoice in this. It no less challenged me when first I considered it. I thought homosexuality to be scary and immoral but I felt that in order to truly honor Jesus and do as he would have done, I would need to accept that his words applied to all people as he indeed said they did. It is not for me to judge, it is for me to recognize and accept that two people who live in a loving marriage made by God, not by any man or government, were living as God intended. I didn't want to believe it, looked for numerous reasons not to believe it. The reasons and arguments were all there, but each time I tested what was told to me and what I read against the words of Jesus and each time I had to conclude that men were contradicting the words of Jesus.
That one realization, perhaps more than anything else, convinced me of the power of Grace and the depth of God's love for us all. We fabricate many things, thinking we know enough to speak for God when really all we need do is listen to and take into ourselves the teachings of Jesus. So long as we think and act in unselfish love for each other, nothing we are or do can be called a sin.
I know I don't always think or act from love, maybe not even most of the time, I imagine nobody always does. I know I can't claim to know the mind of God, only hope to know it. What I hope to do here is to explain and share my belief, and witness in testimony what I believe is God's will as given to us by Jesus.
Last edited by Jason_Els; 08-08-2007 at 11:08 PM..
Thankyou, antredd. I was blown away by your post. It couldn't possibly have been put any better, clearer, stronger, more to the point. It's frustrating that you can so forcibly say everthing I was trying to express earlier... so easily. Soon as it lets me start repp'ing people again for today I will .
Your post moved me beyond words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd
In order for me to make my point clear, I need to first discuss how many times fornication is discussed in the bible. The word fornication is derived fromt he Greek word,"porneia" , and is normally translated in the King James Version of the Bible as "fornication." The word porn and pornography comes from this same Greek word. There are 32 verses in the original Greek versions of the Christian Scriptures that contain the word. It means illicit sexual intercourse adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 Sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, metaph. the worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols.
Some examples are:
Matthew 5:32: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery..."
Romans 1:29-31: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
1 Corinthians 5:1: "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."
1 Corinthians 7:2: "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
Galatians 5:19-20: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies..."
Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Revelation 18:3: "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."
What's very interesting about many of these verses that deal with fornication or porneia is that they are used in the context of heterosexuals fornicating. I make this point because homosexuals are excluded because of them already being turned over by God to a reprobate mind as Romans 1:28 clearly shows.
The point I am making is that (some scriptures translates the Greek Word adokimos in Romans 1:28 as , reprobate KJV, vile or debased NKJV). The Greek word here is very crucial in understanding what Paul is arguing in context for that time period, and in context for anyone who turns away from God. Adokimos can be defined as: not standing the test, not approved properly used of metals and coins that which does not prove itself such as it ought unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate
Knowing this, would it make sense that a person who can not stand up to God's test,who's mind has become reprobate, debased or vile could be born again to enter into His kingdom. The point Paul clearly makes in the context of that time is that he is writing to the Romans who already knew and fully understood that it was unnatural for them to have homosexual sex when so many men and women were already engaging in that unnatural act. The mere fact that this is even mentioned in Romans should be a wake up call for anyone who may be HABITUALLY engaging in any of those sins.
The key thing to note in these verses is that these people Paul is referring to were not TRULY BORN AGAIN and that they were formerly professing Christians who did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in their hearts. These same people reverted to Paganism, and who engaged in ritual sexual behavior as a part of their newly adopted Pagan services. During these rituals, the Pagans were whipped into such a state of sexual frenzy that they went against their heterosexual nature and started engaging in sexual behavior with members of the same sex.
Its quite clear that Paul condemns such behavior. He concludes that Pagan worship will inevitably leads to other negative behavior: "...unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, [and] unmerciful." Therefore, God, who is a God of order, never intended for a man to natually sleep with a man or a woman to naturally sleep with a woman. Had it been so, I strongly believe that we all would have been born hermaphadites, and this issue would not be even an issue today.
If we go to Genesis 2:18, 22-24, it says : And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. This scripture clearly sums it all up; the union between a man and a woman is set by God's natural order and plan. You don't have to be a Greek scholar to understand what God's main purpose for Man was in those verses.
It is clear that Adam, a man, needs companionship, and a woman offers him that as a blessing from God. Also, it is evident that sexual intercourse results in a man and woman becoming one flesh. We can call two gay men or lesbian women together as natural as a heterosexual couple's union, but the reality of the matter is that it is not natural at all. Two men may be able to have sexual intercourse, but that type of intercourse that they are having is not natural nor is a man's anus naturally designed for anal intercourse the way a woman's vagina is designed for it. God designed the anus as a muscle to EXCRETE WASTE from the body, not to inject any thing in it as to simulate the NATURAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN.
I keep hearing the argument that the bible really doesn't teach against being a homosexual, and that the English translations are poor translations to condemn homosexuality. I'm also hearing that a gay person is born this way, and as a result of being born this way, it is as natural for him to be gay as it is as natural for a person to be straight. He is not sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and therefore, if God is love then He understands, knows this person's heart, and allows this person to be gay without any condemnation. A straight man can make the same argument about being born straight, that he's a sex addict, he just can't stop sleeping around with multiple women, and because if he tries to commit and get married, all he's going to do is cheat on his wife. So since he's a sex addict, God knows his heart and therefore he should be given a pass as well.
WE AREN'T GIVEN ANY EXCUSES FOR SIN. The bible teaches that our sins are forgiven when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives, Repent of our sins, and as a result of that become truly Born Again so that we don't continue to habitually drown in sin after God called us to Him. Jesus said in Luke 9:23 that if anyone desires to come after Me, let him DENY himself, and take up his CROSS daily, and follow me. All we must do is follow Jesus, obey God's commandments, and stop using EXCUSES for why it's ok to FORNICATE AND LIVE IN SIN, WHEN NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO TWIST GOD'S WORD, A HABITUAL FORNICATOR WILL NOT SEE NOR ENTER GOD'S KINGDOMbe it a gay, lesbian, or straight christian.
As you cited in Matthew, Jesus was referring to the married. You're right. We must follow Jesus and obey God's commandments which, last I looked, were ten.
If Jesus says, "deny yourself," then truly deny yourself by laying aside your prejudices, your hatreds, and the presumption that any man, living or dead, has the power to judge men's souls.
If Jesus says, "take up his cross," then we must forgive the sins of the world as he did by forgiving our enemies, loving them as we love ourselves. We must do our work not in jealous self-righteousness but in compassion, laying aside our own needs for those of others.
"And," is your commandment, not God's, not Jesus's. If you truly want to follow Jesus then follow the laws of Jesus, not those of men who have set themselves up in judgment. If you say, "stop making excuses," then I fervently hope that you will use this opportunity to do the same. Our God is ever loving, ever compassionate. The power of Grace is His alone and as Jesus said, God is kind to all his children.
Both cannot be right.
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. -John 3:16-17
You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments. -Matthew 22:36-40
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.-Luke 6:35-37
It is not what you eat, what you wear, or even what you do and that includes who you have sex with. It is the intention in your heart and a heart that is full of love, mercy, humility, acceptance, and forgiveness is the heart that truly follows God.
These are the keys to salvation as given us not by any apostle or prophet, but by Jesus himself. Paul is right in this case. He says the hearts of the false prophets have been perverted by their false assumptions. Their sin originates in their hearts because their hearts are not full of love. The origin of the sin is the intention, not the act. A wayward soul will naturally fill with those acts Paul listed, but it is the heart itself that is sinful, not the acts because acts cannot be sinful without the intention of committing sin.
A man who uses his sexuality to fulfill only himself, to use other people as objects, who uses his lusts to satisfy only his lust, is committing sin. A man who uses his sexuality to fulfill the committment of marriage, to give of himself freely, with humility, to express his love, and the desire to join his soul with his partner in love is fulfilling God's wish for us.
So if two men or two women join together in marriage and love each other wholeheartedly and selflessly, then there is not a single passage in the Bible, not an admonishment from a pulpit, not a Christian living or dead, that can refute it and say it is unholy in the eyes of God for no person, living or dead, prophet, king, apostle, or pope, who can countermand the words of the Son of God.
I hope you rejoice in this. It no less challenged me when first I considered it. I thought homosexuality to be scary and immoral but I felt that in order to truly honor Jesus and do as he would have done, I would need to accept that his words applied to all people as he indeed said they did. It is not for me to judge, it is for me to recognize and accept that two people who live in a loving marriage made by God, not by any man or government, were living as God intended. I didn't want to believe it, looked for numerous reasons not to believe it. The reasons and arguments were all there, but each time I tested what was told to me and what I read against the words of Jesus and each time I had to conclude that men were contradicting the words of Jesus.
That one realization, perhaps more than anything else, convinced me of the power of Grace and the depth of God's love for us all. We fabricate many things, thinking we know enough to speak for God when really all we need do is listen to and take into ourselves the teachings of Jesus. So long as we think and act in unselfish love for each other, nothing we are or do can be called a sin.
I know I don't always think or act from love, maybe not even most of the time, I imagine nobody always does. I know I can't claim to know the mind of God, only hope to know it. What I hope to do here is to explain and share my belief, and witness in testimony what I believe is God's will as given to us by Jesus.
Jason, please hear my heart on this. This goes way, way beyond the issue of homosexuality. You, of course, have every right to believe as you like, but I fear you are very deceived. Of course, loving others and loving God are the most important things, but how can I say this? Sometimes what you and I think is "love" still may not be pleasing to God. For example, two unmarried people who are in a very loving monogamous relationship. Suppose say, they are in college and not in a position financially to marry right now. They could justify that because they are in love, that premarital sex is acceptable. And from a human standpoint, why not? But the fact of the matter is --fornication will never be acceptable with God. I have just used this as one example. I just don't think we can toss out the morality contained in the Bible and just begin to apply the yardstick of "does it seem loving to us?' in order to make our decisions. It's a faulty compass without the input of God's Word. Again, some things may appear to be "loving" to us, but just aren't acceptable to God.
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God endorses Heterosexuality throughout the Bible.
