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I don't know why I get into these threads but here goes...of course, Jesus loves gay people, but the New Testament condemns the practice of homosexuality just as much as the Old Testament did. So I fail to see how the Word and love Jesus swept all this away.
I assume you're talking about First Corinthians 6:9:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul is wrong. Jesus himself assured a theif that the theif would enter heaven with Jesus. Similarly, Jesus ministered to a harlot. If she could not enter the kingdom of heaven, then why bother with her? While chronic alcoholism is different from drinking too much from time to time, Jesus approved of drinking alcohol. The righteous, I think, do not have a monopoly on heaven.
What I'm about to say may be controversial, but Paul didn't know Jesus. Jesus Himself commanded that the Golden Rule is the supreme law and nobody, not even Paul, has authority to countermand it. When I look at the unbound love and grace that Jesus possessed, I'm reminded of his admonition to his apostles who time and again tried to elevate Jesus or protect him from the less desirables. Every time, Jesus chose to be with the downtrodden and weak, reminding his disciples that he was there specifically for those people. I think Paul is doing exactly what Jesus would have disapproved of by writing that to the church at Corinth. Paul, who was a just a man like all men, was casting stones that were not his to cast.
In my book, to enter heaven:
I have to answer hate with love. I must pray for Osama bin Laden as I pray for my family.
When I fail my values, I have to honestly try to live better.
When I want to condemn, I must realize that only God has the power to judge souls and that I myself am not without my own faults.
I must share with the unfortunate even when I may not have enough for myself.
I must respect, honor, and selflessly love my family, my friends, and not cause cruelty to any living thing.
I must remind myself to be thankful for all that I have.
I must practice my faith with humility.
I must not be jealously covetous of the good fortune of others. If my friends or family have more than I do, then I must truly and honestly rejoice with them in their good fortune.
There may be others, this list is off the top of my head. I find great value in studying other religions, I don't believe Sunday to be any holier than any other day, and though I'm not Catholic, I like to read about the lives of the saints. I wholly admit I don't know if Jesus was divine, semi-divine, or entirely human, but I believe he was the son of God. I do not believe in the Biblical creation myth, but I believe God created the universe and life itself. I do not know if God caused Homo sapiens to come into being, but I suspect He did.
I think we complicate religion too much, daring to assume that we have any remote idea that we can fathom the mind of God. When I try to wrap my brain around quantum physics or mysticism like Kabbala, sufism, Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross, I realize just how limited our senses and reason must be to begin to comprehend the mind of God. In my own mystical meditations I have glimpsed the terrifying enormity and complexity of the world but like staring into the sun, I cannot maintain that state. All I can say is I have an idea of how much I do not know. Maybe because I early on studied astronomy and grew-up considering the vastness of the universe and microverse, I think I have an idea and know that I will never be able to grasp it until the end of my life. In that, I trust I shall always approach God as a small child.
When there is true desire in the heart to cause harm to others then I believe God is diminished. When a heart is filled with love and desire to foster amity, then God is increased. I truly think it's as simple as that. Getting to that point is the hard part!
I've mentioned it before but I will say it again. There is a gay couple who live down the street from me. They are well-to-do and have lived together for over 40 years. They are both old now. I admire them. They donate selflessly and generously to local charities with both money and time, they are respectful of their neighbors, and when one is sick, the other will tend to him at home or in hospital. They are devoted to each other and even now when I see them they bring happiness to each other and to their friends. They are both Christians. They obey the laws as far as I know, and they contribute to local life by being good citizens. I believe that when they die, God will open the gates of heaven to them. I could be wrong, yet because I see them living as Jesus would wish, my belief in their salvation is strong. As I say, it is not for me, or any other man to judge. All I can do is suspect and hope.
Last edited by Jason_Els; 08-06-2007 at 11:41 PM..
I assume you're talking about First Corinthians 6:9:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul is wrong. Jesus himself assured a theif that the theif would enter heaven with Jesus. Similarly, Jesus ministered to a harlot. If she could not enter the kingdom of heaven, then why bother with her? While chronic alcoholism is different from drinking too much from time to time, Jesus approved of drinking alcohol. The righteous, I think, do not have a monopoly on heaven.
Paul was not wrong. The thief was not sill sinning and the harlot was told to go and sin no more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason_Els
What I'm about to say may be controversial, but Paul didn't know Jesus. Jesus Himself commanded that the Golden Rule is the supreme law and nobody, not even Paul, has authority to countermand it. When I look at the unbound love and grace that Jesus possessed, I'm reminded of his admonition to his apostles who time and again tried to elevate Jesus or protect him from the less desirables. Every time, Jesus chose to be with the downtrodden and weak, reminding his disciples that he was there specifically for those people. I think Paul is doing exactly what Jesus would have disapproved of by writing that to the church at Corinth. Paul, who was a just a man like all men, was casting stones that were not his to cast.
Jesus, in my Bible, did not 'command that the Golden Rule was the supreme law', I'm not sure what bible you are reading. Paul was exhorting us to live as commanded. I think you may have an issue with just how much you believe the Bible. Seems we're awfully eager to throw out what doesn't suit us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason_Els
In my book, to enter heaven:
I have to answer hate with love. I must pray for Osama bin Laden as I pray for my family.
When I fail my values, I have to honestly try to live better.
When I want to condemn, I must realize that only God has the power to judge souls and that I myself am not without my own faults.
I must share with the unfortunate even when I may not have enough for myself.
I must respect, honor, and selflessly love my family, my friends, and not cause cruelty to any living thing.
I must remind myself to be thankful for all that I have.
I must practice my faith with humility.
I must not be jealously covetous of the good fortune of others. If my friends or family have more than I do, then I must truly and honestly rejoice with them in their good fortune.
Ah, there it is 'in your book' or, to paraphrase, the gospel according to Jason_els. I think believing anything you want to believe is just fine, but don't imply that your beliefs in any way line up with the bible when you're going to selectively decide what's included in your bible. The Bible clearly teaches that belief and faith in Jesus Christ should be somewhere in this 'off the top of your head' list. Failing to even briefly mention Him in a list of so-called 'requirements' should be a huge red flag, it is for me, anyway.
I will agree with you on one point right at the end of your post, though....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason_Els
As I say, it is not for me, or any other man to judge. All I can do is suspect and hope.
but I think one can be quite confident of your personal salvation, but the status of others is something we simply can not know. But we can teach and edify as the bible teaches and encourage all people of all struggles to 'Go, and sin no more.' What they do with those words from The Christ, is totally up to them.
Exactly! Go and sin no more... God does not uphold the practice of homosexuality... does he love gay people? sure.. he loves theives, and prostitutes, and burglars, and ...pedophiles. the point is, he will forgive them, and tell them to turn away from the world of sin and follow in his footsteps. This does not give you creedance to continue to live in sin, with the "back up plan" that you can turn around and say you're sorry in the end, to cover your @ss. There's a difference between being a repentant sinner, and living in purposeful constant sin,
Yep, we keep saying that we cannot judge, that only God judges, and yet we are constantly telling the posters that they are wrong, wrong, wrong.
How do we know? We can only say what we THINK and what we FEEL is correct. No matter how sure we are, I don't think that we can say with total certainty that THIS is 100% correct and THAT is 100% wrong.
Sin can be interpreted as "falling short." In which case, just about everything we do or say would be sinful. Are we supposed to just sit and do nothing all our lives so as to live as pure a life as possible? Of course not. We aren't idiots and I think that the workings of our heart AND MINDS will be weighed.
I am not wise enough to make decisions as to what standards others may have to meet.
As I stated in my first post and previous posts, I'm less interested in what the Bible has to say than the actions of Jesus Himself. As I also stated, I do not believe in the creation myth and I know many other Christians who do not. I do not believe homosexuality is sinful, again, just as I do not believe we should stone adulterers, circumcise, keep fibers from mixing, or follow dietary proscriptions.
I base my belief about the unsinfulness (that a word? ) of homosexuality on the rest of Luke 6 as well:
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
and:
45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 6:22 is a difficult passage because here Jesus tells us not to be hypocritical in our actions nor judge others in the name of God.
Luke 6:45 tells me that it is our intentions behind an action that make it good or evil. If it is the intention of two people to love each other as a couple and that love is true, then their action is goodly in the eyes of God.
These two passages are subsets of :
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
These are the words of Jesus vacating the words of the previous prohpets and laying down a new law. A law vastly more difficult to follow than any other. Too often, I think, Christians do not contemplate the enormity of what is being asked of them by these passages. So much of it appears to go against our nature and our concept of what is Just. Reread that last part of 6:35, "...for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." God loves all of us though we may have evil in our hearts. He loves the joyful, innocent child as he loves the foulest murderer and not only does he love them, but he will be kind to them. In my book, that means that they too shall equally enter the kingdom of heaven.
The idea that the humblest and most innocent among us shall equally share in heaven is tough to swallow because what threat then does God have to keep us moral? What reward shall we who strive to follow the words of God enjoy that the evil shall not?
Jesus says there is no difference. We who strive to follow God have only the knowledge that we are trying to follow God. That is our only consolation.
Why?
I think it's because that when murderers and other people with malice in their hearts enter heaven they will become enlightened to their sins. The enormity of the awfulness of their actions and their desire to commit those actions shall become apparent to them. Their soul will be in heaven, but necessarily also eternally know the consequence of the evil that was in their hearts. Will they eternally regret their evil now that they are perfectly pious in spirit? I do not know, but I surely would love to enter the kingdom of God without those kinds of sins on my conscience. I have enough regrets.
So when people debate homosexuality as a sin, I have to ask myself if the hearts of homosexuals are filled with evil. Certainly some homosexuals are evil just as some heterosexual people are, but homosexuality does not make one evil because the state of homosexuality does not demand that we break the other commandments of Jesus. Any person who loves with their whole heart, who gives of themselves selflessly, loves and whose heart is filled with joy and kindness is living as God would hope. I see no sin in that because Jesus tells us God sees no sin in that.
Christians pick and choose what to believe every day. If they didn't, we would have but one monolithic church, not thousands of denominations; all of whom seem quite comfortable that what they have picked and chosen are the right things. This is why the Golden Rule is set above all others. Not only did Jesus give us this law Himself, but it is the one that I think makes all those different denominations Christian. It is certainly the hardest to follow.
As I stated in my first post and previous posts, I'm less interested in what the Bible has to say than the actions of Jesus Himself. As I also stated, I do not believe in the creation myth and I know many other Christians who do not. I do not believe homosexuality is sinful, again, just as I do not believe we should stone adulterers, circumcise, keep fibers from mixing, or follow dietary proscriptions.
I base my belief about the unsinfulness (that a word? ) of homosexuality on the rest of Luke 6 as well:
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
and:
45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 6:22 is a difficult passage because here Jesus tells us not to be hypocritical in our actions nor judge others in the name of God.
Luke 6:45 tells me that it is our intentions behind an action that make it good or evil. If it is the intention of two people to love each other as a couple and that love is true, then their action is goodly in the eyes of God.
These two passages are subsets of :
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
These are the words of Jesus vacating the words of the previous prohpets and laying down a new law. A law vastly more difficult to follow than any other. Too often, I think, Christians do not contemplate the enormity of what is being asked of them by these passages. So much of it appears to go against our nature and our concept of what is Just. Reread that last part of 6:35, "...for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." God loves all of us though we may have evil in our hearts. He loves the joyful, innocent child as he loves the foulest murderer and not only does he love them, but he will be kind to them. In my book, that means that they too shall equally enter the kingdom of heaven.
The idea that the humblest and most innocent among us shall equally share in heaven is tough to swallow because what threat then does God have to keep us moral? What reward shall we who strive to follow the words of God enjoy that the evil shall not?
Jesus says there is no difference. We who strive to follow God have only the knowledge that we are trying to follow God. That is our only consolation.
Why?
I think it's because that when murderers and other people with malice in their hearts enter heaven they will become enlightened to their sins. The enormity of the awfulness of their actions and their desire to commit those actions shall become apparent to them. Their soul will be in heaven, but necessarily also eternally know the consequence of the evil that was in their hearts. Will they eternally regret their evil now that they are perfectly pious in spirit? I do not know, but I surely would love to enter the kingdom of God without those kinds of sins on my conscience. I have enough regrets.
So when people debate homosexuality as a sin, I have to ask myself if the hearts of homosexuals are filled with evil. Certainly some homosexuals are evil just as some heterosexual people are, but homosexuality does not make one evil because the state of homosexuality does not demand that we break the other commandments of Jesus. Any person who loves with their whole heart, who gives of themselves selflessly, loves and whose heart is filled with joy and kindness is living as God would hope. I see no sin in that because Jesus tells us God sees no sin in that.
Christians pick and choose what to believe every day. If they didn't, we would have but one monolithic church, not thousands of denominations; all of whom seem quite comfortable that what they have picked and chosen are the right things. This is why the Golden Rule is set above all others. Not only did Jesus give us this law Himself, but it is the one that I think makes all those different denominations Christian. It is certainly the hardest to follow.
Well, jason, you certainly have the right to believe anything you want to but I tend to vote with Alpha on this one-that you have concocted "the gospel according to jason" not necessarily Jesus Christ. It just seems like to me that you have thrown out half the new testament in your belief system here. Now again, you certainly have the right to disbelieve it if you want to, but to me it seems like you are totally discrediting the apostle Paul who had, at least IMO, exceedingly great revelation expressly from Jesus Christ as to what the gospel entailed.
This is all rather off thread, of course, except how it pertains to how the Bible views homosexuality.
it seems like you are totally discrediting the apostle Paul who had, at least IMO, exceedingly great revelation expressly from Jesus Christ as to what the gospel entailed.
This is all rather off thread, of course, except how it pertains to how the Bible views homosexuality.
Quite right. Like all men, Paul had his good points and his bad points. He says he had a revelation but then so did Abraham and I think he was a complete nutjob. I do not count the words of Paul as equal to the words of Jesus. While I appreciate the other books of the New Testament, it is the actions and words of Jesus I hold to be supreme over all other books or testaments.
The Bible says the act of homosexuality is a sin. I can hope it is not. I reiterate... I hope it's not. Again I will also reiterate... The Bible says it's a sin. Period.
Who am I to question the Bible, because some parts aren't so nice, or not what "I" want the truth to be?
To all homosexuals out there. I hope the interpretation of the Bible was somehow incorrect and Heaven will be yours to share. Good Luck and Love.
Straight here. But in defense of homosexuals I must say: Those among you without sin cast the first stone.
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...of course, Jesus loves gay people, but the New Testament condemns the practice of homosexuality just as much as the Old Testament did. So I fail to see how the Word and love Jesus swept all this away.
