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Wow...such passion on both sides. I read through this entire thread because I really am not sure where I stand on this. I have to agree with the person who talked about each family doing their own risk assessment.
Oh and I wish differing opinions didn't bring about personal attacks here. How is anyone to learn if they are afraid to post their thoughts?
Anyhow, we have a small dog. A shih tzu. I don't know if I'd want a dog that COULD (the key word here is COULD) kill my children (5 and 8 so beyond baby and toddlerdom, we waited until my youngest was almost 3).
I had a neighbor in NJ who had adopted an abused pit bull. She (the pit bull) was very sweet but the neighbor liked to drop the leash whenever she saw us and I had to ask her not to do that because it made me really uncomfortable. She got mad and yada yada yada, that ended the friendship (that and me not wanting her pit bull to put her face in the face of my 2 day old baby). The owner told me I needed to have more trust in her dog and my reply was, "no, no I really don't need to trust your dog". Nice dog and all but I don't KNOW the dog, live with her, know the repercussions of her past abuse, etc. To me, its about comfort level and not all people have the same comfort level when it comes not only to pit bulls but to dogs in general (cats too).
I also don't think ANY dog should be allowed to go leashless (unless in a specified place like a dog park). There have been several times that a dog, has followed me and my 2 boys home from a walk and while being friendly, still alarmed me somewhat. Next time, I'm calling animal control. Where are the owners? And for that matter, where was the owner of the dog that left its MASSIVE calling card on my front lawn yesterday where my kids play?
The neighbors up the street have 4 dogs, a couple of them are pit bulls. They are enclosed in the back with an UNDERGROUND fence and it concerns me greatly because as I've read they have been bred to withstand pain. Plus the dogs mauled one of the other dogs recently and it had to be removed to the house (the other dogs are outdoor only). PLUS there is a HUGE (we're talking a head that is 10" across) pit bull across the street from them that keeps trying to attack the 4 dogs (yes, owner somehow lets him out).
All this while tons of kids are playing outside and I'm scared for ALL the kids. So as I type this out, I suppose I'm formulating a view and I'd have to say that while I probably wouldn't go out of my way to vote on a ban myself, I'd probably be happy about it (at least where I am now).
I also do agree that even with the breeding of pit bulls over time, that the main problem is the owners. So what if owning a pit bull required a specific license? A license that maybe could help siphen out the bad owners and leave the pit bull ownership to those good dog owners? Just an idea.
Lauren
Still reading? Gosh, how'd this get so long?
I found a puppy Pit Bull in a subway station once. I took it to a local shelter. On my way there, people would back up and away and go make all sorts of "whooaaa" comments and look at me really strangely for having this Pit Bull.
When I got to the shelter, they told me they'd euthanize it immediately. They don't keep Pit Bull rescues. (I ended up driving an hour to take it to a no-kill rescue only to later find out they don't kill, but they give their pit bulls to another shelter, which does).
Anyway...here's my question: why would you even want a pit bull? My experience that day with this little puppy (who was really sweet) was that people were freaked out by the dog, even that small. They looked at me like I was crazy for having it, backed away from us, etc. Why would you want a dog where people respond like that? I would think it would be miserable trying to even take your dog for a walk! Sure,you can say "who cares what other people think" but the reaction was so extreme that I think why would you not choose pretty much any other breed, where you wouldn't get that reaction?
I think there is something to the idea of licensing the owner of a dangerous animal, much like I think a potential gun owner should be tested for gun related knowledge, repsonsibilty and mental stability.
lauren4521 I think you have the most reasonable response here so far.
As long as these dogs are on a leash, physically (not psychologically, through an invisible fence) restrained, etc. there is no reason to ban them.
Instead of banning the breeds, there ought to be much harsher penalties for ALL dog owners for letting their dogs go off-leash in public. And get rid of these infernal "invisible fences" all together.
At my last house in northern Orange County, we had neighbors next door that put in one of those invisible fences. They had a big German Shepard that didn't like us one bit being so close to his yard. I can't tell you how unnerving it is trying to enjoy my own yard right next to a big dog that would like to kill me, with no physical barrier between us. The only thing that kept us safe was that he'd rather avoid getting a little shock in his neck than kill us.
Yet I've seen little dachshunds with scabs on their necks from the shock collars. They valued the freedom from the yard higher than the freedom from shocks. What happens when a larger more aggressive dog (of any breed) makes the same decision?
I say after reading this ban ROTTWEILERS AND PITBULLS!
Bargainmom,
Did you in fact read the link that Alice posted? It said:
However, the focus on death cases may leave the public with the false impression that pit bulls and Rottweilers are responsible for the dog bite epidemic. It is a much broader problem than that, involving all dogs and all dog owners. While pit bulls and Rottweilers inflict a disproportionate number of serious and even fatal injuries, the dog bite epidemic involves many different breeds, and results from many different causes. A clear distinction needs to be made between canine homicides (i.e., incidents in which dogs kill people) and the dog bite epidemic.
Canine inflicted homicides have remained at the same general level (15 to 20 annually), which cannot be said for the number of dog bites, which is too high (5 million annually) and appears to be growing higher (see statistics, above). Considering the fact that there are 65 million dogs in the United States (see above), the homicide problem is minuscule. This is not to denigrate it, but to point out that eliminating it entirely would save only 15 to 20 people, out of the 5 million who are bitten by dogs.
The confusion caused by discussing the homicides and the dog bites in the same breath has its most important ramification in the area of prevention. Some are advocating the banning of pit bulls, Rottweilers and possibly other breeds, for reasons that range from their alleged dangerousness to the fact that they are very often treated inhumanely. Those who hear about the homicides often support breed bans. (See Breed Specific Laws, Regulations and Bans.)
However, while banning the pit bull might lower the number of human deaths, such a ban would probably not reduce the number dog bites in any significant manner. After the United Kingdom banned pit bulls in the 1990s, a study showed that the number of dog bites remained the same even though the number of pit bulls had steeply declined. (Study cited in B. Heady and P. Krause, "Health Benefits and Potential Public Savings Due to Pets: Australian and German Survey Results," Australian Social Monitor, Vol.2, No.2, May 1999.)
As a practical matter, the current tide of public outrage should be focused on the enactment of measures that would deal effectively with the entire epidemic, not merely the breeds that kill. It would be unwise to enact all kinds of controls on one or two breeds, not necessarily because it would be unfair, but because it would produce narrow and therefore unsatisfactory results. The war against crime isn't a war against just the bank robbers, but against all criminals; the war against drugs isn't a war against just the Colombian drug lords, but all drug lords. For the same reason, the dog bite epidemic must not focus on just one or two breeds and stop there. The war on this epidemic must be comprehensive.
I would agree with everyone that a pit bull should not be allowed to roam your neighborhood off-leash, nor should any dog. But you should work to enforce the leash law, not ban the pit bull. If you choose not to own a pit bull, or not to own a dog at all because you are worried about it, good for you. But I do have a baby, and I have two dogs, and I should be able to make that call for myself as well, not have it legislated for me. I feel that my dogs are perfectly safe, but I also use common sense and don't leave them with the baby unsupervised. If the problem is your own dog, don't have one. If the problem is other people's dogs, then enforce the leash law and other animal control laws.
What makes me nervous though is that you can't always be at arm's length from a baby. At least I can't I suppose if you were doing attachment parenting you could. But I personally need some space now and then - even from a cute baby
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I feel that my dogs are perfectly safe, but I also use common sense and don't leave them with the baby unsupervised.
I also wish they would outlaw invisible fences, at least within city limits. And people that have their dogs unleashed are beyond belief. A lot of dog owners have absolutely no concept of the fact that dogs make a lot of people nervous. One time I went to a playdate at a lady's house who had her dog loose roaming around all the babies and toddlers. Meanwhile I know plenty of even cat owners who respectfully put their cat away when people come over, not to mention babies/toddlers. My other pet peeve is people who ASSUME you want your children to pet their dog. It's always huge dogs too. "Do you boys want to pet my dog, do you do you??", and they bring their huge dog right up in their faces. I've gotten to where if I see someone walking their dog I move to the other side of the road with the boys.
Oh and I'll throw in one more pet peeve for good measure - even if you have a little bag to pick things up...I REALLY don't want your dog doing his business in my front yard. Eww. So gross.
Before anyone thinks I'm a dog hater though - I grew up with German Shepards from when I was a baby - and my parents still own German Shepards and show them. But they spend a lot of time outdoors (inside fences), are always very clean, and my parents are extremely respectful of others. We had two dog violence incidents that I remember. One time a neighbor pitbull badly bit the nose of one of our dogs. And another time one of our dogs knocked over (and scratched in such a way to show some blood) one of my brothers' little friends.
As to the argument that all dogs bite people so why ban a certain breed...I think there is a large distinction between a bite that maims and one that kills. The bottom line is that pitbulls and certain other breeds make people very very nervous and noone wants to feel scared in their own neighborhood. I really feel for the lady who has five pitbulls around her house - particularly since four of them have shown aggressive tendencies and are only "contained" by an invisible fence. How can the poor lady ever relax? I think I may have mentioned this a few pages back, but I have had two pitbull neighbors in the past. The one would jump and jump and jump to where we could see his beady little pitbull eyes just over our fence and he would bark at us in a nasty way as we would try to enjoy being in our pool and backyard. He's also the one that bit our german shepard in the nose ripping a big piece off. The second was the sweetest little girl pitbull - until the day she decided to lunge at my 2yo. Good thing she was on a leash. From then on she'd bark like she wanted to kill my children when she'd see them (she was often sitting behind their glass door). They had a little 1yo girl. I hope the dog never decides to lunge at her.
I dont really like the invisable fences either.. When I was growing up we had cocker spaniel and there were times when she would run right trough it to chase the golf carts as they went by! lol.. Pit bulls were bred to withstand pain and as far as I know, cocker spaniels were not. So if my cocker spaniel could get through the fence I am sure ALOT of dogs could go right through it with a little motivation... I have 2 american pit bull terriers that both LOVE everyone BUT I would never leave them in the yard with one of those invisable fences. I dont think thats fare to people that are scared or botherd by pit bulls and its not fare to my dogs to tease them like that.. lol.. My dogs stay in my house. When they go out they are on the leash and before I open my door I put them in their crates (so they dont scare people or run out).. Like I said, Brooklyn and Destiny are both big babies but some people are uncomfortable around them and I understand that. Plus I think you can never been too safe.. any dog can attack no matter what breed or how nice the dog is.
I dont think that a breed ban will fix anything. All it will do is cause a false sense of security, becasue the truth is that "pit bulls" are not the only dogs that attack. Pit bulls also, are not at the top of the list for the dogs that attack the most. There are alot of attacks that are never reported and there are alot of dogs that are mistaken for american pit bull terriers. They are a wonderful breed and they are a great family pet. They are very smart, loyal, gental and tolerant.. BUT just like with any breed they need to be well trained and under control.. and just like any breed they should never be left alone with children or strangers, or let outside without being on a leash. I think we need to deal with the bad owners and the bad dogs, not enact breed bans. I just said all of this not too long ago, but it cant be said enough. We need to enforce the laws we already have and the penalties for breaking those laws. We need to.. Put a stop to leash law violations (higher penalties for owners who violate the leash laws), crack down on dog fighting, Strengthen and enforce penalties for dangerous owners and their dangerous dogs, strengthen animal abuse laws, regulate breeders and prevent people like drug dealers, human or animal abusers, and anyone convicted of a violent offense like.. assault, rape, robbery, etc. from owning any breed of dog. Untill we do this nothing will change. There is no such thing as a bad breed. There are bad owners and bad dogs and we need to deal with them NOT ban whole breeds.
What makes me nervous though is that you can't always be at arm's length from a baby. At least I can't I suppose if you were doing attachment parenting you could. But I personally need some space now and then - even from a cute baby
Ahhh, well I do practice attachment parenting anyway, so in my case I guess that helps!
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Before anyone thinks I'm a dog hater though - I grew up with German Shepards from when I was a baby - and my parents still own German Shepards and show them. But they spend a lot of time outdoors (inside fences), are always very clean, and my parents are extremely respectful of others. We had two dog violence incidents that I remember. One time a neighbor pitbull badly bit the nose of one of our dogs. And another time one of our dogs knocked over (and scratched in such a way to show some blood) one of my brothers' little friends.
As to the argument that all dogs bite people so why ban a certain breed...I think there is a large distinction between a bite that maims and one that kills. The bottom line is that pitbulls and certain other breeds make people very very nervous and noone wants to feel scared in their own neighborhood.
Most of what you are saying has to do with ettiquette, which is not something you can legislate. But you might want to know that German Shepherds are 3rd on the list of breeds that have killed the most people (Pit bull #1, Rottweiller #2, German Shepherd #3, Husky #4, Malamute #5) [1979-1998], so they very well might be next on the list of banned breeds/ breeds that make people uncomfortable. And if pits are banned, then those irresponsible owners are likely to get Shepherds instead, and then they will have the bad reputation.
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I suppose if you were doing attachment parenting you could. But I personally need some space now and then - even from a cute baby 
