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So you do not think Russia is the bad guy? Just making sure.
Essentially, no, because they were deceived and lied to and their genuine and legitimate national security interests have been scorned upon by Ukraine and the west, but basically because reducing these complex geopolitical issues to "good guy vs. bad guy" is to many people in the west and most definitely to a lot of uninformed posters on this thread the standard way to look at these issues.
Why do you support Ukraine? Do you think Ukraine is actually innocent here? What happened in 2014? Was the Ukrainian constitution followed when Viktor Yanukovych was forced out by the Ukrainian parliament? What's your take, if any, on Ukrainian fighters shelling and killing areas in the Donbass leading to thousands of dead civilians?
Does that matter, or in your view, is it all simplistic: "Russia bad! Ukraine good! I stand with Ukraine, I post flag with yellow and blue!"?
1. That "huge period of peace since WW2" is just pure propaganda. NATO countries completely memory-holed the Balkans war in the 1990s and NATO bombing Serbia.
2. Ukraine has been in a quasi-civil war since 2014. Those DNR/LNR forces pre-2014 would've been Ukrainian citizens now fighting against Ukraine. What Western media doesn't like to say is that around ~80,000 Ukrainian nationals are/were fighting on the Russian side in 2022.
Exactly. Europeans have been killing Europeans since the Dawn of Time.
This conflict, will subside, only to be replaced by yet another Euro War in the future, still not sure why America gets in the middle of this nonsense.
Let's see...
Did Ukraine attack us? No.
Did Russia attack us? No.
Did Russia attack NATO? No.
Hmm.
Did Congress declare war on anybody? No.
Did the UN approve war? No.
Ok...so what are we doing??
Let's try for diplomacy and not go all-out towards WW3?
Let it go. Its been brought up 897798 times already.
There are two anti Ukraine camps. 1 brings up and pretty much sticks to "Its not our fight." The other brings up Kremlin talking points. Look at post histories over multiple posts to figure out who belongs in which camp.
I don't see how Ukraine wins personally. To keep up 3-1 loss ratios needed (Russia is 3x population) you don't get many opportunities to go on offensives. Russia is decidedly less stupid and decidedly better at logistics now vs last year. I hope I am wrong. I am realistic however. The best we can do is when Russia does win is to isolate them as much as possible including tourism bans etc. Basically, let them supply India and China with oil to keep oil markets steady but ban the Russian animals out of US/UK/EU etc and make sure to keep tech bans in place. We cannot stop them but we can slow them down.
China is a much bigger threat now and in the future.
This isn’t a Eagles-Cowboy Football game, and only nitwits belong to some cheerleading section routing for one side over another, particularly when they have a childlike understanding of the geopolitical situation at present.
We have two actual types … we have those who have been brainwashed by the “Russia Bad” propaganda, which isn’t far removed from the same type of brainwashed individuals suffering Trump Derangement Syndrome and “Orange Man Bad”, or any other affliction that seems incapable of understanding the situation the entire world is now facing, as the Globalists have unleashed the hounds of hell.
Then we have the rational thinking people who have a tighter grip on fundamental reality, and understand that there are criminal elements controlling US foreign policy, as well as NATO-Western European policy that are determined to destroy the anti-globalist Russian government, just as they continue to attack the anti-globalist Trump, and anyone supporting him.
The people who have a broader understanding of the war being waged against us, understand that the efforts to destroy our country and us are being orchestrated behind the scenes, with Joe Biden’s sole purpose in life to mask these intentions under the illusion of poor policies and incompetence.
Ukraine is, and has been a totally corrupt, money laundering center, and biological weapons development playground for globalist psychopaths and corrupt political figures. The Ukraine war itself serves as dual mechanism intended to inflict harm on Russia (which is failing) as well as a funnel for countless Billions of dollars (100 Billion at present count) embezzled by globalist controlled politicians, which provide the massive funds needed to bribe these treasonous grifters into implementing globalist policies.
Few seem to be able to connect the dots, no matter how obvious. From the open border policies of this criminal regime infesting the White House and Halls of Congress, to the wholesale destruction of the economy through massive increases in the national debt, to the attacks on our food processing plants, to injecting the global population with a bioweapon. The criminals are attacking us from every conceivable angle.
Our enemy isn’t Russia …. the enemy is within our own country, all of whom are compromised and paid for by the Communist Chinese.
If anyone had any doubt about that before, they shouldn’t now, given how these Chicom balloons have been allowed to encroach American Airspace, and travel about the country for days unmolested. And, the latest revelations about how this happened during the Trump administration, and how Secretary of Defense Mattis deliberately withheld that from the President.
Our government is now totally controlled by traitors on the payroll of the CCP.
That’s not true at all. This conflict dates back to 2014, and even before that, and revolves around several matters that European leaders were well aware of. No surprises whatsoever.
First, the Ukrainian “color revolution” referred to as Maiden, was orchestrated by the CIA and US State Department in 2014, conducted out of the US Embassy in Ukraine. This led to the overthrow of Ukraine’s government, and the installation of a pro-west, anti-Russian puppet regime in Kiev. What followed was a series of anti-Russian measures initiated by the new Regime, which alienated the substantially ethnic Russian population in the Donbas region of Ukraine, and a direct use of military force against them, by the Ukrainian government, which resulted in the formation of defensive militias, notably the DPR and LPR.
A series of diplomatic measures were engaged to end this conflict, known as the Minsk and Minsk II accords, with members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), comprising diplomats from Germany and France to serve as mediators between Ukrainian and Russian diplomatic officials. The agreements signed were supposed to end this conflict, yet Ukraine continued to use military force to target civilians and civilian infrastructure in the Donbas, in violation of those agreements. Later, it was admitted by German Chancellor Angela Merkel that the Minsk agreements were simply a diversionary tactic to provide Ukraine time to strengthen its military capacity and readiness to be an effective counter force to any Russian military action the Russians might engage in the Donbas region, in response to Ukraine’s continued aggression against these ethnic Russian civilians.
So, no … there is no big surprises going on here. The only surprise was how long it took for Russia to realize that Ukraine had no intention of allowing these people to self govern, as they had agreed to do, under the Minsk agreements.
The reality is, they knew full well that Russian military action was a strong possibility, and only a matter of “when”, not “if”, Russia would eventually take action. This fact is proven by Merkel’s own admission that the Minsk agreements were only a ploy to buy time for Ukraine to build up its military, which Ukraine never intended to honor.
The truth is, Russia was lied to and double crossed at every turn. Every agreement Ukraine made with Russia was broken by Ukraine, and this ultimately led to Russia going in to stop the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Russians in the Donbas, and secure their ability to self govern without constantly being under attack by Ukrainian forces.
Furthermore, what was earlier touted as Russian military weakness-incompetence in the early months of the conflict, and the source of all of the propaganda about how Ukraine was handedly defeating the Russians, was in fact Russia doing exactly what they said they were trying to do, which was to force Ukraine to cease its assault on the peoples of the Donbas, while avoiding as much as possible, harm to Ukrainian civilians and civilian infrastructure in the process.
The Russians have now reached the inescapable conclusion that such a measured approach is no longer a viable strategy, and have taken off the velvet gloves, and are now conducting a war, rather than an intervention. And the Russians are now systematically decapitating the Ukrainian military and its ability to continue fighting.
The only possible outcomes at this point are either Ukraine agrees to a negotiated end to the war without conditions, or Ukraine will ultimately cease to exist as a nation.
Excellent summary. Unfortunately, many posters on here will "cancel" this information since they have to push the narrative that "Ukraine good, Russia bad" mindlessly and "Russia attacked without provocation". And your information does not support that narrative so it has to be ignored. Remember, nothing happened before February 24 of last year. Events before that time have to be ruthlessly suppressed. So your information has to go down the memory hole. Remember, "Ignorance is Strength".
This isn’t a Eagles-Cowboy Football game, and only nitwits belong to some cheerleading section routing for one side over another, particularly when they have a childlike understanding of the geopolitical situation at present.
We have two actual types … we have those who have been brainwashed by the “Russia Bad” propaganda, which isn’t far removed from the same type of brainwashed individuals suffering Trump Derangement Syndrome and “Orange Man Bad”, or any other affliction that seems incapable of understanding the situation the entire world is now facing, as the Globalists have unleashed the hounds of hell.
Then we have the rational thinking people who have a tighter grip on fundamental reality, and understand that there are criminal elements controlling US foreign policy, as well as NATO-Western European policy that are determined to destroy the anti-globalist Russian government, just as they continue to attack the anti-globalist Trump, and anyone supporting him.
The people who have a broader understanding of the war being waged against us, understand that the efforts to destroy our country and us are being orchestrated behind the scenes, with Joe Biden’s sole purpose in life to mask these intentions under the illusion of poor policies and incompetence.
Ukraine is, and has been a totally corrupt, money laundering center, and biological weapons development playground for globalist psychopaths and corrupt political figures. The Ukraine war itself serves as dual mechanism intended to inflict harm on Russia (which is failing) as well as a funnel for countless Billions of dollars (100 Billion at present count) embezzled by globalist controlled politicians, which provide the massive funds needed to bribe these treasonous grifters into implementing globalist policies.
Few seem to be able to connect the dots, no matter how obvious. From the open border policies of this criminal regime infesting the White House and Halls of Congress, to the wholesale destruction of the economy through massive increases in the national debt, to the attacks on our food processing plants, to injecting the global population with a bioweapon. The criminals are attacking us from every conceivable angle.
Our enemy isn’t Russia …. the enemy is within our own country, all of whom are compromised and paid for by the Communist Chinese.
If anyone had any doubt about that before, they shouldn’t now, given how these Chicom balloons have been allowed to encroach American Airspace, and travel about the country for days unmolested. And, the latest revelations about how this happened during the Trump administration, and how Secretary of Defense Mattis deliberately withheld that from the President.
Our government is now totally controlled by traitors on the payroll of the CCP.
Quoted for posterity and so that people will be forced to look at this text twice even if they refuse to read it carefully. Those who refuse to do so are too unwilling to face the slightest cognitive dissonance and without any courage, remain in this comfortable cocoons with whatever passes for "reality" in their minds.
Some of us don't care much how bad Ukraine is.
It is a chance to drive Russia to impoverished status while assisting someone else who badly wants to keep his homeland. In the world wide scheme of things, Ukraine did not contribute all that much - GDP was only $200B. But it was their country and they want to keep it. After all, Ukraine asked everyone else for help and Z declined to run for cover, saying he wanted ammunition. Ruskateers should stop pretending the war was fomented by NATO or by the US.
It doesn't matter how much I like or dislike Z or Ukraine.
In other words, if Ukraine had been attacked by France I would not be so interested. But it was Russia who made the terrible mistake. I am in favor of making Russia's mistake economically fatal. So far, so good.
Any country that abuses its neighbors and is hungry for more and more land every decade needs to be dealt with. Don’t care if Ukraine is corrupt - that’s the government. Its people are the ones suffering due to a land hungry Kremlin.
It really took time for "the West" to gear up for this, mentally. Remember, that in the first days of the invasion, Western Europe couldn't believe it was happening. It came as a complete shock that a war could happen in their midst, after such a long period of peace after WWII. They didn't believe the US briefings during the buildup of tanks at the border, that Russia was going to invade. Some dithering resulted, when the worst, the unthinkable, came to pass.
And then it became a question of how much money to spend, what types of arms to send, how far to get involved, fears of WWIII to overcome, and so on. Russia had the psychological advantage in that regard. They caught everyone (but the US) by surprise.
Excellent post.
I think it came to a shock to Europeans that Russia is still behaving in a way that Emperors, Kings, Ottoman Sultans and Russian Tsars acted like hundreds of years ago.
Most European countries (other than apparently Russia) have learned that it is not how much territory you want from others but what you do with the territory you already have. Japan also has learned this, she is far richer now and her people have a higher standard of living then anytime when she still had an empire.
But if you neglect your economy, your education and healthcare and your population is actually shrinking (!), then you are forced to try to take people and territory from your neighbors just to stay even. That sadly is Russia under Putin today.
In a tiny village in eastern Ukraine at the epicenter of the next phase of the war, Lyudmila Degtyaryova measures the Russian advance by listening to the boom of incoming artillery shells.
There are more and more of them now. And they are coming more frequently, as Russian troops grind their way forward.
“You should see the fireworks here,” said Degtyaryova, 61, as the sounds of artillery howled all around. “It is like New Year’s.”
Some of us don't care much how bad Ukraine is.
It is a chance to drive Russia to impoverished status while assisting someone else who badly wants to keep his homeland. In the world wide scheme of things, Ukraine did not contribute all that much - GDP was only $200B. But it was their country and they want to keep it. After all, Ukraine asked everyone else for help and Z declined to run for cover, saying he wanted ammunition. Ruskateers should stop pretending the war was fomented by NATO or by the US.
It doesn't matter how much I like or dislike Z or Ukraine.
In other words, if Ukraine had been attacked by France I would not be so interested. But it was Russia who made the terrible mistake. I am in favor of making Russia's mistake economically fatal. So far, so good.
Yes, for nearly one year now, you've made it very clear on this thread and others on this topic that you dislike Russia and that its ruination brings you pleasure and satisfaction. That this scenario would entail the real-world suffering of men, women, and children who are not responsible for the events in Ukraine has been mentioned to you by other posters including me, and you remain unmoved.
But what is also unchanged and unmoved is your belief that Russia's economy is suffering. You've been told about the RUB's performance and about how the sanctions are not harming Russia, while we in the U.S. face actual circumstances such as damaged supply lines, higher inflation, further shortages of foodstuffs and of energy, and of course, smaller weaponry stockpiles. But rather than refuting this, you insist Russia's economy is sinking.
Posters who have your view think all this is a price worth paying to weaken Russia. The problem for you (in other words, the facts) is that Russia isn't being weakened, not the way you want it to happen and surely not the way you believe it is occurring.
Likewise problematic is that within your argument, as long as Russia suffers and sinks and then collapses, this is all worth it; it doesn't matter whether Ukraine's leaders are virtuous or corrupt (the latter); it is irrelevant whether or not Ukraine did anything before Russia launched its Special Military Operation that was unethical, illegal, or criminal (it did all three, to Donbass Russians and to Ukrainian citizens); there is no relevance whether Ukrainians have committed war crimes (they have).
As long as your fantasy of a ruined Russia comes closer to fruition, that lives are lost, Ukrainian or Russian, military or civilian, is irrelevant.
Pretty reprehensible if you ask me.
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